Second attemp to Hamon a 1075 Bowie

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Apr 27, 2009
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I am making a large bowie out of 1075. I tried to give it a hamon. I cleaned up the blade and was down to a 100 trizac. I gave it a quick etch to see how it looked and found a awsome hamon. Well... It was awsome except for 1.5 inches at the tip. I'm not sure how that happened. If anyone has idea let me know.
I am using a mini forge and 2 gallons of canola for the quench. I used furnace cement for laying out for the hamon. Would I be better off using a interrupted quench? I am worried about bacon edge since I had it almost completed.
Is there anything that I need to do so I can get a hamon on my second try?
 
you can try again, reclay and requench. the tip must not have been hot enough if the hamon disappeared.
 
I'm confused. Did the tip get hard or not? It's common for the tip to harden further back and push the hamon line quite aways back. A big thing I notice is let the clay/cement air dry slowly. If you dry it to fast it will separate from the steel and instantly pop off when it hits the oil and do nothing. I usaly let it air hang dry for 24-48hrs befor heat treating. Don't rush it with a heat gun or hair dryer.
 
These are a few I did for a customer a few weeks ago. Seamed to turn out really well.

Photo%20Sep%2024%2C%209%2041%2056%20PM.jpg


The clay stays on even through the quench.
Photo%20Sep%2024%2C%2010%2032%2038%20PM.jpg


All done.
Photo%20Sep%2024%2C%2011%2045%2046%20PM.png


Customer sent me this pic to let me know thy turned out great.
Photo%20Oct%2011%2C%205%2005%2000%20PM.jpg


So like I said above "DRY SLOW"
 
I'm not having problems with the cement coming off.
No pics. Sorry. I just tried to harden a second time.
I didn't put clay within 2" of the tip. I also had problems with the blade warping. I cleaned the blade with a 36 grit belt and did a quick etch. It looks very shallow.
Should I try no clay or water? Or something else. Lol. My blade seems to be shrinking. I hope I can get a bird and trout out of 18" of 5/16"x2.5"
 
If the clay is not the same pattern, shape, thickness and cover the same area on both sides then it will or can warp. That picture you posted of the clay looks a bit off. I would not expect to get much from that type of coating pattern. It does not need to be super thick. Just even and like I said the left and right side need to match.
 
These are a few I did for a customer a few weeks ago. Seamed to turn out really well.

Photo%20Sep%2024%2C%209%2041%2056%20PM.jpg


The clay stays on even through the quench.
Photo%20Sep%2024%2C%2010%2032%2038%20PM.jpg


All done.
Photo%20Sep%2024%2C%2011%2045%2046%20PM.png


Customer sent me this pic to let me know thy turned out great.
Photo%20Oct%2011%2C%205%2005%2000%20PM.jpg


So like I said above "DRY SLOW"

Thanks again JT. They did turn out great! Proper clay, quench oil, steel type and a good kiln will help. Especially with 1095.
 
Instead of big thick globs of clay, try an even thinner layer. ( look at Charles' photo)

I recommend the following procedure:
Coat the entire blade with a thin wash of satanite. About as thick as runny pancake batter is good. Let dry overnight.


Make the pattern on one side of the blade with satanite about as thick as sour cream. Put it on about 1/16 of an inch thick. In no case should it be more than 1/8". Let dry several hours.

Turn blade over and repeat the pattern on the other side. Try to match the height and shape evenly on both sides. Let dry overnight.

Do the quench as usually, assuring a full soak and even heating. A HT oven is great for this.

TIPS:
A hair dryer is great for speeding the drying up after the wash and between sides.

If concerned with unwanted sori, or fear edge cracks, scrape the clay off the spine as you apply it.

The clay pattern is not necessarily the exact place the hamon will be. In most cases it is a bit more toward the edge ... but that can't be counted on. A test quench on a beveled piece of the same metal will give you an idea where to place the clay. If in doubt, make it higher than you want. A high hamon is still OK, if it dips to the edge .... you have to do it over again.

Use a popsicle stick to apply, shape, and smooth the clay. Popsicle sticks ( AKA craft sticks) are also great for mixing and applying epoxy, shimming hidden tang handles and tsuka, and lots of other shop tasks. Get a box on ebay - 100 for $5 or 500 for $10.

Comment:
Many people don't quite understand the reason for the clay in attaining a hamon. Some think it is to insulate the upper part from the heat in austenitization. That is wrong. For an active hamon to form, the steel under the clay needs to be the same temperature as the edge. What the clay does is delay the cooling of the upper part during the quench. This allows the edge to harden into martensite while the upper part drops into pearlite. The boundary between the two is the hamon. Additionally, the two structures polish and etch differently, thus giving the classic hamon look.

If the clay is too thick, it delays the cooling, but also retains too much heat. This excess heat bleeds down back into the edge and in-hardens it. Having just enough clay to retard the quench about 1 second on the upper bevel is all you want.
The reason you need a shallow hardening steel (one that requires a very fast quench) to attain the different structures. Steels with little alloying and low manganese are what you want. 1075, 1095, W2/W1, Hitachi white #1, etc.
1084 varies in manganese content and alloying, but will usually make a fair hamon. Steels like O-1, 5160, and 52100 have too much alloying to harden fast enough. Air hardening steels, like A2 and stainless steel take far too long to harden, and will not produce a dual structure hamon.
 
81nwHGz.jpg
Instead of big thick globs of clay, try an even thinner layer. ( look at Charles' photo)

I recommend the following procedure:
Coat the entire blade with a thin wash of satanite. About as thick as runny pancake batter is good. Let dry overnight.


Make the pattern on one side of the blade with satanite about as thick as sour cream. Put it on about 1/16 of an inch thick. In no case should it be more than 1/8". Let dry several hours.

Turn blade over and repeat the pattern on the other side. Try to match the height and shape evenly on both sides. Let dry overnight.

Do the quench as usually, assuring a full soak and even heating. A HT oven is great for this.

TIPS:
A hair dryer is great for speeding the drying up after the wash and between sides.

If concerned with unwanted sori, or fear edge cracks, scrape the clay off the spine as you apply it.

The clay pattern is not necessarily the exact place the hamon will be. In most cases it is a bit more toward the edge ... but that can't be counted on. A test quench on a beveled piece of the same metal will give you an idea where to place the clay. If in doubt, make it higher than you want. A high hamon is still OK, if it dips to the edge .... you have to do it over again.

Use a popsicle stick to apply, shape, and smooth the clay. Popsicle sticks ( AKA craft sticks) are also great for mixing and applying epoxy, shimming hidden tang handles and tsuka, and lots of other shop tasks. Get a box on ebay - 100 for $5 or 500 for $10.

Comment:
Many people don't quite understand the reason for the clay in attaining a hamon. Some think it is to insulate the upper part from the heat in austenitization. That is wrong. For an active hamon to form, the steel under the clay needs to be the same temperature as the edge. What the clay does is delay the cooling of the upper part during the quench. This allows the edge to harden into martensite while the upper part drops into pearlite. The boundary between the two is the hamon. Additionally, the two structures polish and etch differently, thus giving the classic hamon look.

If the clay is too thick, it delays the cooling, but also retains too much heat. This excess heat bleeds down back into the edge and in-hardens it. Having just enough clay to retard the quench about 1 second on the upper bevel is all you want.
The reason you need a shallow hardening steel (one that requires a very fast quench) to attain the different structures. Steels with little alloying and low manganese are what you want. 1075, 1095, W2/W1, Hitachi white #1, etc.
1084 varies in manganese content and alloying, but will usually make a fair hamon. Steels like O-1, 5160, and 52100 have too much alloying to harden fast enough. Air hardening steels, like A2 and stainless steel take far too long to harden, and will not produce a dual structure hamon.

Thanks Stacy.
I learned a lot. I think I had the fireplace cement on a little bit thick but it wasn't the same as how it looked. I applied it and then ran it in and out of the forge till it was dry. It puffed up like rice crispies. I'm guessing that's not the ideal way to use it.

I couldn't get a good quench the first 2 times in canola. Will canola even work or should not use clay and hope it auto hamons? It came out ok with a interrupted quench but it's scary to risk cracks on a large knife.
 
120f canola is fine for 1075. If it was not hardening there was something else wrong with your methods. 1075 does not require a water quench.
 
Thanks kuriki. This was my first time using 1075. I did several searches for info but never really found a lot of detail.
I did it just like i have done my 1084 and 80CrV2. When you are just starting out sometimes you are guessing about what mistakes are made. It really great to get advice from all of you.
 
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