Second time making knife, few questions.

[Heisenberg]

Hey everyone,

Im planning to make my second knife. This time though, I am putting a lot more thought into it as I want it to be the best I can possibly make.


Plan:
-8.5 inch overall length.
-4 inch blade length
-Drop Point
-Full flat grind
-Want to use M390 (am I stupid for wanting to use this steel for essentially my first time?)(I am pretty set on using it) I found it 1.5" x 12" at .155" or .177" for a little over $30
-Will send away to be heat treated. I will probably have a few questions later on concerning that process.
-Canvas Micarta or G10 handle scales.
-As far as tools
I have access to a drill press, angle grinder, belt sander, band saw, Dremel, files, drill bits, sandpaper.
-It will be an outdoor camp knife probably not touching anything other than wood or softer material. Will be batonned.
-I understand M390 is a hard steel but I feel it will hold up fine on a 4 inch, thick stock blade.

Questions:
1. M390, yes or no?
2. .155 or .177 inch blade thickness? M390 is offered in both.
3. Will my tools (well my dad's to accurate) be adequate for taking on this steel?
4. Im sure I haven't thought of everything so please feel free to bring up any suggestions. I welcome constructive criticism.

Thanks a lot guys, a lot of you makers have inspired me and there are some very talented guys here. The "first time making a knife" threads always wow me too. It gives me a little hope.

Here is a rough sketch I drew up earlier. Specifications are subject to slight changes. Your probably thinking, "Hey that looks like an ESEE 3..."

Edit: Here are the first knives I made (I made them both at the same time, one G10 the other deer antler. Both from a sawmill bandsaw blade. Heat treated with acytlene torch, quenched in motor oil.)

 

[Overmountain]

Ditch the M390 especially if you are going to HT yourself... The temps needed are over 2000F and require a soak. Then the quench is a bit of a trick to really get the most out of this steel. May I ask why you are so set on it? I find that so many, and don't take this the wrong way, new makers get in their head they want one type of steel and don't really know why. They are maybe basing this on one blade they looked at for five minutes, or just because "my buddy said." If you don't know the metallurgical process involved with proper HT, the steel is as worthless as mild steel when the knife is done.. That said, DO stick with known steel. I feel like I have just now reached a point where I can start playing with mystery steel to some degree. However I will spend a lot of time checking it, testing it, and trying to determine exactly what approach to take with it. In the end though, 99% of the time I start with known steel where I know what result to expect. Also, do not quench in motor oil... This is bad bad mojo. Motor oil is designed to deal with temperatures of around 500-750 degrees max. Not triple that. In addition, USED motor oil can have suspended water which will cause it to violently erupt on you, and also contains nasty heavy earth metals and such which can do bad things to you health wise if the vapors are inhaled. Use a quality quenchant, or at the very least something similar of known content.
I would stick to simple carbon steels for your first knives. Your tools are fine, stay with the hand tools part of that equation though. Leave the dremel for detail work cleaning up lines, and leave the bench grinder out altogether. Drill press for pin holes and the like and otherwise stick to files and sandpaper.

Read the stickies. They say pretty much all there is to say and can give you some good info.

This is similar to your drawing. Also has a sort of flat grind, however is compound with convex near the blade edge. It may appear to have a shallow bevel, however the measurement is actually .090 a full 5/8 inch into the blade, customer did not want a plunge cut... I went with 3/16" thick 1095 steel and the customer who now has it reports it is far stronger than he ever imagined... I actually took a similar knife with my HT and drove it into a crack in a rock wall, using it as a step just to prove my point to someone... Then I pulled it out and shaved the hair off my arm. Don't discount simple carbon steel. Simple doesn't mean it isn't capable, just that its chemistry is free of a lot of alloying components.

 

[fumbler]

^he's not doing the heat treat on this one, so no worries there.

I've never used M390 but I'm sure it'll be fine. You can use whatever steel you want with whatever tools you have. A good knifemaker can make an excellent knife with basic tools. Better tools only make it easier and/or faster. For most beginners simple steels are a better choice because working them won't test your patience like the higher alloys. You know what you can do so it's up to you whether or not you want to tackle a high alloy steel.

Either thickness would make a fine knife. You'd gain a tiny bit of strength with 0.177" but it won't matter much in real world use. 0.155" would save you a tiny bit of time in grinding/filing the bevels and would make for a slightly better slicer. I vote 0.155.

That design sure does look like an ESEE, which is ok as long as you're not producing and selling them. I like the small sharpening choil. I do the same thing on my knives:
http://livknives.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Ranger-3V-Tan-3.jpg

The biggest issue I see with your design is the handle shape as viewed front to back. the handle is thin exactly where you'd expect there to be a palm swell. Have you made a full scale model yet? That's the first thing you should do before you make the knife. Making a model out of wood or other cheap materials is an easy way to figure out if it's a good design.

 

[Heisenberg]

First of all, What an unbelievably attractive knife, LCK. Just, wow...its perfect.

Also, I appreciate you taking the time to type a lengthy response.

I wouldn't dare try to heat treat an exotic steel like M390 myself. Wouldn't even think about it. I have no problem sending away for a professional with the proper equipment to take care. of. I found contact info for a few places in one of the stickies.

Hah, I am aware that the antler doesnt look like an antler in the traditional sense, but it is, in fact, the very outside of the antler for the most part. Just not a very unique looking one. It was laying around and i thought what the hell. I can still remember the smell of running it through the band saw.

I will definitely reconsider the steel as per your suggestion of using a carbon steel. I wish I could say that m390's name and reputation has nothing to do with me wanting to use it but I guess it kinda does. But, using it wont break the bank and I just thought it would be fun to use something exotic so I went straight to the top of the exotic list.

I am completely aware that the fit and finish on my first knives are sub par but I really rushed through them because I was having so much fun. I probably spent 6-7 hours start to finish on those knives. This, I want to make more of a summer project/hobby, leaving not detail to spare and taking my time.

Thanks again for the wisdom, I will be re reading your post a few times trying to soak it all in.

 

[fishface5]

FWIW, I just got my first knife back fro heat treat. I used a piece of CPM 3v I picked up cheap. Lemme tell you it was a pain in the butt to grind!!!!!!!! I don't know if I will ever get the grind lines out of the blade flats. My understanding is that M390 is even more difficult, and also more finnicky to heat treat. You might want to practice on another steel before trying to make a "cosmetically perfect" knife out of a more challenging steel. Mine will be serviceable but not at all flawless alas.

 

[Heisenberg]

Thanks Fumbler. very encouraging and helpful post.

Ive been looking at pictures of knives with those two thicknesses and I am leaning towards .155. It appears to be a lot thicker than I picture it in my head. Its about the same thickness as the thickest point on my Paramilitary 2 (4mm). I will have to cut a piece of wood in both dimensions and compare.

Also, that's a really great idea I didn't think of making a scale model out of wood. Its really hard to imagine what the handle will feel like when looking at in 2D on a piece of paper. The more I look at my drawing, the more the handle does look uncomfortable.

Thanks again!

I will definitely do a WIP thread. I just hope I don't embarrass myself with the final product . Oh well, I hoping to keep the total cost around $50-$60 so I will be happy as long as it resembles a knife and can take a beating. Im just really looking forward to the journey, not the destination. There is something about working with your hands that really speaks to your primitive instincts. And the feeling of accomplishing what you set out to do is like no other.

 

[Heisenberg]

Fishface, hah I am sure you will be 100% right. I'll have to try my best to get it near its final stage before I send it for HT (again, I wont have to deal with the HT process). Im not going to be too critical of myself on the cosmetics. Like I said its only purpose will be to cut through sticks so I can deal with a few grind lines. I was thinking about using 3V. Ive read it makes a great fixed blade due to the toughness.

 

[Overmountain]

Yeah, if you are sending out for HT have at it. Sorry about the antler, I have seen more than one that was used as scale material cut down into the pith. It is hard to get a grasp of removing material for the under side to get it thin, and I think a lot of people just assume they are solid... No worries, sounds like you know better... And yes, it is some smelly stuff when it gets a little warm... lol.
Thanks for the compliment, I think it turned out well.
For a model, home depot and lowes sell yardsticks in their paint departments for less than a buck a piece. They are really soft and fast working wood plus they are already marked for length! Use some play-doh to make the scales and you will have an excellent working model. I usually pick up 3-4 when I hit lowes. You would be surprised what you can use them for... lol. There are a couple cut up and being used as supports in my flower bed too...
Biggest thing, obviously have fun. Dont worry about any embarrassment on a WIP thread. We were all new to this once, and like I said, your firsts were nicer than mine. Good start.

 

[Heisenberg]

Thanks again for the response LCK, and nor worries, i can understand your observation. The antler is pretty solid but I did of course have to sand down the inside, soft, porous, pith. Great suggestion with the play-doh and yardstick and although I didnt do exactly that, I made 2 scale models out of wood using just a band saw and an orbital sander. Im going to go with the smaller one which is about 7 3/4 inches in length with a 4 inch blade.

 

[Overmountain]

Looks good. Wood makes a nice simulation aid... You can really get a good feel for it.

Looking forward to the finished product.

 

[Heisenberg]

Yeah it definitely gave me a nice feel for the size and handle contour. It feels strange being so light though.

I cant m390 anywhere for a decent price and in the right dimensions so right now im looking for an alternative. s90v, M4, 3v, etc...decisions decisions

 

[Overmountain]

I have used CPMS90V, and it is a great bit of steel... The others, I can't speak of. I don't use a whole lot of stainless... (yet..., I am working on laminates with some, but this apparently takes patience and a lot more forge-welding experience than I have. So far I can get it to weld, but forging out without delamination is another matter. That, and I get the feeling my mentor (Burt) doesn't want to pass along his process just yet... )

 

[Heisenberg]

Im going with s90v I've finally decided. I want to use stainless. I also want to get started on this ASAP. Im too excited.

Hah I wish I knew more of what your a talking about with the forge welding and delamination... Unfortunately those words are not a part of my vocabulary yet.
But good luck with all that!!

 

[Overmountain]

S90V will make for an excellent and well wearing final product.

As for my lamination dreams, I was lucky enough to hook up with Burt Foster a while ago as he is here locally. It just happens he is one of the best at laminate steel, stainless over carbon, and makes some OUTSTANDING creations. He is one heck of a guy to boot... Check out his website and drool like me

I can only dream of the day I can make the same... Of course you can buy laminate steel from a couple of places, and it makes for a nice knife with great properties.