Secure? Or re-hang my Hudson Bay?

[SR69]

Norlund Tomahawk Hudson Bay
I just got this HB a few weeks ago from a fellow BF member.
I'm outrageously pleased with it, but the head came loose while
chopping with it so I'm going to have to re-hang it unless it's
possible to save it as is and possibly drive another wedge into
it and soak it in BLO? Swel-Lock maybe?

I understand that these particular heads are difficult to secure
so if I can take the great 90% of the work that's been done and
preserve it and just get in that last 10% to make it right, I'd be
very happy with that outcome.

I've read here & there that metal wedge are frowned upon and
that going with a more substantial kerf to lock in the head is the
way to go. I've also heard that metal wedges are fine. I've seen
folks argue over round vs shim type wedges. I'm open to any
advice on what to do and what to use and why you think it's better.

From what I see, I'm thinking about first removing the wedge,
making a new kerf from sugar maple, taking the shoulder down
a bit to seat the head lower and leaving at least 1/2" above the
eye so that I can soak it with BLO and hopefully swell it up.
I was thinking about reinserting the same wedge unless I'm
convinced that there are better options.

Any suggestions?

 

[300Six]

It's a clean and good-looking implement with a nice haft and nothing appears to be obviously wrong anywhere. Likely seasonal shrinkage due to low humidity. First off try soaking it for a day or two (ie immerse the head and the eye end of the haft in a pail of water) to see if that sufficiently tightens up the joint. Try chopping vigorously with it to be darn sure. That will prove or disprove whether the looseness is due to wood shrinkage. What you don't want to do is oil soak or swell lock right off the bat because then trying to remove the haft becomes that much more difficult, or impossible, should the process not be successful.
If the simple water soak works then let it dry out thoroughly (maybe even put the whole works in the oven at 175-200F for a few hours as well) followed by soaking the head in oil (everyone on here seems to prefer BLO although personally I use anything including 3-in-1 or engine oil to swell wood ends) for a few days.
Good luck!

 

[BG_Farmer]

Looks like excellent job initially. 300Six is likely right about why it came loose. I would definitely save the handle. Try swelling the head first, then go to other options only if that doesn't work.

Metal wedges are fine, but save them as last resort. The metal ring somewhat limits your option for placement anyway.

 

[SR69]

I agree. The initial job was done very well and the last thing I'd want to do is undo it.
If I can just get it seated at least 1/4" below the top of the handle so that I can get a
bit of swell at the top to help secure it more, I'd be a happy camper.

 

[300Six]

You can set the head down further by whittling away (chisel and rasp) wood at the shoulder but how to establish snug dimensions is not gonna be so easy! If you can get the head to move slightly forward so that a set of calipers can mike the already fitted wood at the back that would really help. If the head can then be set back 1/2-3/4 inch doing this then removing the existing wedges is going to become that much easier. With the head off now is a good time to extend the wedge cut before reassembly with a new wood wedge. Omit the circular steel one and hide it away it for a rainy day. And leaving the end cut 'proud' of the eye this time around won't hurt to help keep the head more secure either.

Much as I love the looks of Hudson Bay heads I am in no hurry to own one for heavy service because of the reduced wood contact within the eye relative to conventional axe head designs.

Folks on here don't recommend soundly tapping the butt on a hard flat surface to enable inertia to seat a head but I've done it that way for 40 years, and luckily the butt on yours is already flat which lends itself perfectly to that.

 

[SC T100]

I like the idea of checking for wood shrink by testing in water first. It'll just take some time to figure that out.

I also don't think it would be a bad thing to seat the head a little lower if possible. If it were mine, I would take a disposable razor knife and remove the "mushroomed" wood below the head, and then take off a little bit more at a time. Then I would hold the whole thing upside down and hit the swell with a wooden mallet. You may see the head start to seat lower. If it does, I would razor away the wood a little at a time, then tap the head lower, razor away a little wood, repeating until the head wont seat any longer.

You may then have a bit of the haft above the head. I would then take a thin wood drift, and attempt to drive the wedge and metal pin down a little more (making sure the wedge, and ONLY the wedge were being driven), which would hopefully peen the proud section of the haft over the top of the eye just a bit. But be aware...I've had the head jump back up a little when messing around with the wedge.

Ps. the kerf if the vertical cut in the haft...I think you meant wedge when you mentioned making another one.

 

[rc4u12]

i just posted in another thread that i use thin CA to soak the the head to handle top then bottom, after dry then use medium CA and it swells the wood and makes it very hard and i have not had any of mine loosen yet...now they were reasonably good to start and didnt want to put wedge in...dont use wallmart CA go to hobby shop for quality glue...you may be surprised and how cheap and low effort..jeff

 

[300Six]

i just posted in another thread that i use thin CA to soak the the head to handle top then bottom, after dry then use medium CA and it swells the wood and makes it very hard and i have not had any of mine loosen yet...now they were reasonably good to start and didnt want to put wedge in...dont use wallmart CA go to hobby shop for quality glue...you may be surprised and how cheap and low effort..jeff

Trouble with this seemingly sound advice is if it doesn't work then you suddenly become worse off then you were before. For most modern consumers this is no big deal since attention spans have become increasingly short and wallets have become increasingly fat but for a frugal old guy like me 5 years down-the-road is the primary aim and effecting a proper fix is paramount.

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

Don't immerse the head in water. That just causes temporary swelling and then the wood will shrink even worse once the water evaporates, and also causes the wood to weaken and potentially rot.

And I don't see why soaking in oil would be a problem if it causes the haft to become so tight he can't remove it. That's what he wants.

There's two options really. If it is only slightly loose and you think the wood shrunk then you can try to soak it in oil. Otherwise you have plenty of material to take the head lower down on the handle. The latter is the better option since the handle was hung for appearance and really needs some wedge action above the eye.

If you go with the former choice and you have further problems then you can drill the wedge out to release the head.

 

[300Six]

Don't immerse the head in water. That just causes temporary swelling and then the wood will shrink even worse once the water evaporates, and also causes the wood to weaken and potentially rot.

And I don't see why soaking in oil would be a problem if it causes the haft to become so tight he can't remove it. That's what he wants.

Water swelling is supposed to be temporary; done only to establish whether the wood shrunk due to humidity. Then you do the oil soak. Otherwise, if a head was loose due to poor fitting, soaking it in oil is only going to make it more difficult to remove the haft after.
'Course the vast majority of tool users manage to rectify these problems with old keys, fence staples and lots of nails.

 

[SC T100]

'Course the vast majority of tool users manage to rectify these problems with old keys, fence staples and lots of nails.

And door hinges...don't forget door hinges. And coins. And my personal favorite so far: unidentifiable random scrap of some sort of rusty metal.

 

[Square_peg]

You could try to re-hang it on the existing handle. It looks like a pretty nice handle.

There were a couple small errors made in the hanging of that axe. With that circular wedge I'm not sure if you'll be able to salvage the existing handle.

When hanging an axe the forward progress of the haft into the eye should be stopped by the inside of the eye, not by the bottom of the axe head (in axe terms this is the 'back' of the axe with the top being the 'front' of the axe). On your axe the forward progress of the haft was stopped by the bottom as evidenced by the burr of wood raised that was raised up. This burr shows in your 3rd and 6th images. More wood should have been shaved off of that haft around the bottom of the eye.

Secondly, the kerf is too thin and the wedge didn't penetrate far enough to be effective. There are ways to widen a kerf. One is to clamp it closed and saw it again. Or saw it with a wider saw blade. Stacking two hacksaw blades on a hacksaw works pretty good, too.

Next, the hanger should have left about 1/4 of the haft protruding above the eye. This haft material, when spread by the wedge, would become wider than the eye, preventing the head from ever coming off.

Additionally, and this is more a personal thing, I don't care for those round wedges. I prefer no metal wedge at all but if a head comes loose I'm not beyond adding a flat metal wedge.

Lastly, with the short eye of a Hudson Bay axe the more contact you have inside the eye the more durable your hang will be. To that end I would recommend coating the inside of the eye with construction adhesive just before final assembly. Quickly wipe off whatever adhesive splooges out after you wedge the axe.

For more info about why your head came loose see this thread.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1152684-The-drawback-in-the-Hudson-Bay-pattern

 

[garry3]

Do not soak that axe handle in water unless you are going to rehang it anyway, because once it dries out it will for sure be loose in no time. That trick came about from people that were either to lazy to busy or lacked the know how to fix a loose axe head.

 

[flexo]

this wedge looks to thin to me! take it off, make a sturdier new one,drive it in,after having sanded down the haft to make it stick out a bit while rehung.
with the right wedge wood will mushroom and snug fit. would be easy to put a cross wedge, the hard way, if it wobbles once again,with no reason!
and please no metal wedge wich are cool stuff but a pain (somewhere) to take off...

 

[flexo]

Do not soak that axe handle in water unless you are going to rehang it anyway, because once it dries out it will for sure be loose in no time. That trick came about from people that were either to lazy to busy or lacked the know how to fix a loose axe head.

the thing to soak in cold water is a glass to pour a good beer in it! it does the trick:thumbup:

 

[SR69]

Norlund Tomahawk Hudson Bay Handle Replacement:
Which of these sellers do you guys trust for good quality replacement handles for my Norlund?
I was looking for something in a 24" size to try to get it back to as close to original dimensions.
I think 28" would be a too long for this head which comes in at 2#. I currently have a 22" handle
on it and wouldn't mind going up to 24". Of course I'm open to any other suggestions.

Beaver Tooth Handle Company
http://beaver-tooth.com/collections...s-axe-handle-white-hickory-aw-grade-item-1324

Bailey's
http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...Replacement-Handle-for-the-Hudson-Bay-Axe.axd

Tennessee Hickory Products
http://www.tennesseehickoryproducts.com/products.shtml

Garant
http://www.garant.com/html/en/produits/produit.php?idProduit=136&typeProduit=famille

House Handle Company
https://www.househandle.com/products.html#single

[Supposedly "original" Norlund HB handle...]

 

[300Six]

If you're figuring on replacing an otherwise perfectly good haft just because it's a little bit loose why not bite the bullet and pound in a circular steel wedge like most of the boutique makers now do.

 

[SR69]

Read every response and this is the plan I've come up with to try to either save
the hang job or re-do it from scratch. Thanks to everyone who took the time to
respond. I really appreciate the advice.

For anyone who's interested, I'm going to try using DPG Dipropylene Glycol that I
purchased on eBay for $6.99 in an 8oz size. It's supposedly the active ingredient in
"Swel-Lock" which sells for $9.44/2oz. (or $37.76) and for all intents and purposes
is supposedly no different functionally.

It was more than about the savings for me however; The DPG will arrive to me as
early as Monday and no later than Friday. Plus, with so many axes to work on over
the next few weeks, more was better. I'll post how well (or not) it works when I've
received and applied it.

I've managed to get the handle above the eye about 1/8". Hopefully, the DPG will
do it's job. If not, the next step will be removing the handle, re-cutting the kerf
and widening it then inserting a thicker wedge in the center from ash or ironwood.
If that doesn't work, then I'll go ahead and just get a brand new handle from scratch.

 

[SR69]

If you're figuring on replacing an otherwise perfectly good haft just because it's a little bit loose why not bite the bullet and pound in a circular steel wedge like most of the boutique makers now do.

It already has one.
I might add a small straight steel wedge as a last resort though before going full-butcher on it.

 

[300Six]

I see! If you can get the haft to shift down about 1/4 inch (via using a chisel and rasp) this will allow you to cut/chip the wood away from around the steel and the wood wedges so that you can get a pair of vice grips (or some such) on to get them out. Then all of a sudden, and with much less work than fitting on a new haft, you can replace the wood wedge with a bigger one. Make sure to make the wedge cut a little bit further in while you're at it.

PS My apologies I should have re read your previous post a bit more carefully.