Seeking advice (re: shows and online sales, some other things)

H

HallHandmade

Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
1,071
edit edit edit: I wrote a novel-length OP, then deleted it because I felt like I was whining, then I edited it back again to give context to the responses. Then, once my head was clear, I edited into a much more coherent, and much less melodramatic version.

Hi all,

I've hit a bit of a crossroads in my knifemaking career. I've been going fulltime for a year now, and I've definitely had some ups and downs. In reality, I should be out in the shop right now instead of typing this, but it's been bothering me so much I have been having trouble staying focused on my work. There's a few points I'd like to hit here, and I'm short on time, so I'll do my best to stay concise. I recently began placing large orders for a major upgrade to my shop and capabilities, and now I am seriously second guessing myself whether I want to go through with this, and whether I want to continue being a knifemaker.

My first instinct was to post this in around the grinder, as it will have some pity party content, but the main point is discussion of knifemaking as a business in the present time.

My membership here is coming up, and I'm torn as to whether I am going to renew. It has nothing to do with dissatisfaction. I've made many friends here, and gained many terrific and supportive customers. I only have good things to say overall regarding my experience as a maker on BF. I've learned a lot, and had a lot of fun. I've been able to express myself artistically, and make a decent living doing it.


Things have been slow the past couple months. A few of my friends in the community, as well as myself, have gotten to the point where it is dangerously, or unsustainably slow. I do sell a lot here, as well as locally and through other outlets. I'm not quite as diverse as I'd like to be, and I feel that the impact I've felt during this slow season can be blamed partially on that.

My primary concerns here involve the exposure and risk involved with selling online. Also, the risk involved with relying on the internet (which as we all know can be a fickle, fickle beast) for the bulk of one's income.

A customer got pretty ticked at me yesterday, and that is what kind of prompted this. In retrospect it wasn't as serious as I thought, but it still was a bit of a catalyst to discuss something I had already been thinking on for quite a while.

I think a lot of you know the feeling when you've been working 80+ hour weeks longer than you can remember, and are so tired that your hands are shaking and you are starting to hallucinate, only to have a buyer light up on you. It can be tough to take. This is as you struggle to make a half-assed living, only for the love of the art. I'm just not so sure I can do it any more. A couple days ago I fainted in my shop and split my forehead open on the edge of my bandsaw table, as I was working the 25th consecutive hour in a shift.

Anyways, to the real substance... I am starting to wonder if I will be able to continue to tolerate selling online. By tolerate, I would initially think bad transactions, but now that I've considered it more, the real problem is the time cost involved. The only apparent solution to this seems to be concentrating on local sales and shows, but it seems like I hear more and more makers saying that shows aren't worth it, and selling online is where it is at. I understand the issues with shows, the costs, the time involved, but having on-the-spot transactions is incredibly attractive to me at this point. I guess you trade a lot of little bits of time when selling online, for a few big chunks of time with shows.

So, I'm wondering, are shows obsolete for today's custom maker? Is it possible to still make a livable income offline?

What other sales outlets are there, such as local, dealers, etc? Are these viable as sole or majority outlets for work?

What methods can I use as an alternative to paypal, that still protect both parties, but aren't so heavily biased against the seller?

I was considering perhaps making a merchant site and then directing customers to checkout via credit/debit card there. I've noticed a couple makers doing this already. I've also considered opening a knife and tool sharpening business, as there aren't any at all in my area of 400k+ residents, and there are many businesses here that have to outsource that type of work. Then I could use that for stability, and use my custom work for artistic satisfaction.

sub-edit/note: I think I was being a bit dramatic about paypal. It's a PITA, but not really that big of a deal for the most part. We are in a pretty tight knit community, and any buyers going around screwing with sellers as a habit, wouldn't last long, and vice-versa. One MAJOR plus of selling on BF, is that the forum looks out for both sides, and if any buyer or seller screws around, they won't survive here for too long. It's almost like an added insurance policy for your transactions.

I guess that is a good place to start. I've got to go back out into the shop, but will try and stay active in the thread. Thanks in advance for your time and insight.
 
Last edited:
This is terrible to read from another So Cal maker. I'm not a full time maker so I'm not really qualified to answer all your questions but I can give you my opinion as briefly as possible.
1) Fainting on the job and multiple days of sleep deprivation are a recipe for disaster. That is something that shouldn't be happening and could have you filing for disability instead of marking your boundaries with irritating customers.
2) I do agree though that times have changed a little and some customers may feel a little more entitled and be more uninhibited with their words and sadly I see it in other areas of business as well. Everyone has their tolerances and deals with them a little differently but it's YOUR business and you call the shots and you set the pace. There, are plenty of good customers out there too. If there is one guy out to ruin you but you have a hundred satisfied customers and a paper trail to back you, I'm not sure the one guy can succeed unless you let him.
3) I haven't done any shows but would definitely do it if I was in the position to because usually dealers have a presence there. It's a great way to get more exposure and network with the right people, as well as possibly sell your work (even if you just go to the local ones or the ones in the surrounding states). In terms of being online what social media are you on; Youtube, FB, etc?
4) I'm moving to ditch paypal as well for the same reasons and when I'm ready I will set up a merchant site. I think it's the better way to go but it's my opinion.
5) I'd contact some of the dealers that maintain sites that get plenty of traffic or have a presence on some of the cutlery forums to see what their process is for finding, acquiring, and listing a custom maker's work (A.G Russell maybe?).
6) I'd definitely do the knife and tool sharpening business for steady income during the slow periods.
7) Marry an accountant that has relatives in web design and marketing.... (I had to throw that in. You seem like you could use a laugh)

I hope things get better for you my friend. Living in So Cal and doing this full time isn't cheap and is one of the reasons I'm considering moving out of state....
 
On the surface, it appears as if you are more dis-enchanted with paypal then the overall knife making experience. If your work is desirable and people want to purchase your product, then require a 50% down payment for custom orders unless you are sure that you could sell it anyway . . . , and then cash, money order, or cleared check for the final payment. Don't send the knife until payment is cleared. Make this a part of your payment policy, and forget Paypal. They take too much anyway. I charge extra for paypal payments.

Mike L.
 
Hey Ian,

I'd hate to see you quit knife making - your's are beautiful. As an older (68 yo) gentleman, permit me to give you the benefit of my experience.

1) Get out of the shop. You shouldn't be working more than 12 hrs/day - even that is too much as a steady diet. I had a job as an area mgr. which would take from 8-12 hrs/day 5 days a week plus a boat building business which took 2-4 hrs for 2 or 3 evenings and every weekend. I did that for about 15 years and went thru a girlfriend about every 18 months. I finally burned out, quit my full time job, moved to Washington, started another boat building business just in time for the recession.

2) As you have discovered, PayPal and eBay are not your friends!!! They will screw you every way but loose. I used to let customers inspect my boats if they weren't able to see one prior to purchase. They would get the boat, inspect it, and then pay me thru PayPal ($6500). One customer on the East Coast got the boat, inspected it, and refused to pay me. I learned my lesson. After that, I had his check and it cleared the bank before I shipped If he is legit he won't mind doing it that way - if he isn't legit he will try to give you some bullshit but he doesn't have your knife. I REPEAT - GET THE BUYERS CHECK, CREDIT, OR DEBIT CARD BEFORE YOU SHIP THE KNIFE.

Frankly, I don't think knife shows are worth much - I'm sure others will disagree. There don't seem to be many good kitchen knife shows. The difference between you and I, however, is that you have a reputation for making good knives while I am just starting out so I need the shows way more than you do. I do see chefs mention you on Kitchenknifeforums but I don't know how you translate that into sales.

As the Aussies say "keep your pecker up, mate".

Tim
 
I'm not sure what the problem is Ian. Your work looks very good, so I'm not sure why someone would threaten to rake you over the coals. I offer a common sense warranty. If it's defective workmanship or materials, I take it back unless it has been abused.

As for paypal, you'll be paying pretty much the same with a merchant account. People in today's society like instant gratification. They want it now. PayPal allows them to have it now. Back in my service biz days, PayPal had cheaper rates than any merchant I could find. So long as I did over 10k a month through them, I got something like 2.5%. I think currently without a merchant account it's 3% + a per transaction charge. I don't think the transaction charge is all that much.

Look around at the different banks and lender institutions that offer merchant accounts and be sure to read the fine print. I think once you do that, you'll see that PP isn't so bad after all.
 
Ian...

Shows are very important if you are going to do this full time. There you show your works and take some orders as well as network and buyers love to meet the makers.

Getting your knives handled by a dealer can relieve many customer based headaches. Places like Fort Henry Knives and Les Robertson, Arizona Knives get a lot of traffic.

You could also make a stop at South Coast Cutlery in Costa Mesa mall. Dan has been in buisness for a long time and might carry some of your knives and give you some advice from a professional on sales.

I am going to their show in October. You should go and we could meet up.
 
Also, I realize that this may be counterproductive to a full-time business model, but don't accept orders . . . or don't accept orders with deadlines if this is a source of stress. Again, if your product is desirable then it should sell. Make the knives on your own schedule without a deadline, and then sell them. This allows increased artistic latitude and maximizes the enjoyment level, in my opinion.

The two knives shown on your website gallery look very nicely done. Keep that gallery up to date and try to market on this website in order to draw people to you. Every time you finish a knife for a customer that you are proud of, post it in the custom knife forum.

Before long, people will be coming to you without having to enter knife shows, etc.

Good luck.

Mike
 
J. Rosa said:
This is terrible to read from another So Cal maker. I'm not a full time maker so I'm not really qualified to answer all your questions but I can give you my opinion as briefly as possible.
1) Fainting on the job and multiple days of sleep deprivation are a recipe for disaster. That is something that shouldn't be happening and could have you filing for disability instead of marking your boundaries with irritating customers.
2) I do agree though that times have changed a little and some customers may feel a little more entitled and be more uninhibited with their words and sadly I see it in other areas of business as well. Everyone has their tolerances and deals with them a little differently but it's YOUR business and you call the shots and you set the pace. There, are plenty of good customers out there too. If there is one guy out to ruin you but you have a hundred satisfied customers and a paper trail to back you, I'm not sure the one guy can succeed unless you let him.
3) I haven't done any shows but would definitely do it if I was in the position to because usually dealers have a presence there. It's a great way to get more exposure and network with the right people, as well as possibly sell your work (even if you just go to the local ones or the ones in the surrounding states). In terms of being online what social media are you on; Youtube, FB, etc?
4) I'm moving to ditch paypal as well for the same reasons and when I'm ready I will set up a merchant site. I think it's the better way to go but it's my opinion.
5) I'd contact some of the dealers that maintain sites that get plenty of traffic or have a presence on some of the cutlery forums to see what their process is for finding, acquiring, and listing a custom maker's work (A.G Russell maybe?).
6) I'd definitely do the knife and tool sharpening business for steady income during the slow periods.
7) Marry an accountant that has relatives in web design and marketing.... (I had to throw that in. You seem like you could use a laugh)

I hope things get better for you my friend. Living in So Cal and doing this full time isn't cheap and is one of the reasons I'm considering moving out of state....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. California is definitely rough. I wish I wasn't rooted here. As mentioned by other posters, merchant services aren't a magic bullet, but paypal has just turned into an enabler of poor behavior and fraud.


logem said:
On the surface, it appears as if you are more dis-enchanted with paypal then the overall knife making experience. If your work is desirable and people want to purchase your product, then require a 50% down payment for custom orders unless you are sure that you could sell it anyway . . . , and then cash, money order, or cleared check for the final payment. Don't send the knife until payment is cleared. Make this a part of your payment policy, and forget Paypal. They take too much anyway. I charge extra for paypal payments.

Mike L.
Click to expand...

That's a big part of it, but I am a very black/white person. Such as, once someone hands me money and I hand them the knife, that is MY money and THEIR knife, assuming it wasn't a warranty/quality issue, something of that sort. Unfortunately, selling online today, is pretty much, the customer owns the money and the product, and can revoke either from the seller any darned time they feel like, for just about any reason. That just doesn't sit well with me.


tim37a said:
Hey Ian,

I'd hate to see you quit knife making - your's are beautiful. As an older (68 yo) gentleman, permit me to give you the benefit of my experience.

1) Get out of the shop. You shouldn't be working more than 12 hrs/day - even that is too much as a steady diet. I had a job as an area mgr. which would take from 8-12 hrs/day 5 days a week plus a boat building business which took 2-4 hrs for 2 or 3 evenings and every weekend. I did that for about 15 years and went thru a girlfriend about every 18 months. I finally burned out, quit my full time job, moved to Washington, started another boat building business just in time for the recession.

2) As you have discovered, PayPal and eBay are not your friends!!! They will screw you every way but loose. I used to let customers inspect my boats if they weren't able to see one prior to purchase. They would get the boat, inspect it, and then pay me thru PayPal ($6500). One customer on the East Coast got the boat, inspected it, and refused to pay me. I learned my lesson. After that, I had his check and it cleared the bank before I shipped If he is legit he won't mind doing it that way - if he isn't legit he will try to give you some bullshit but he doesn't have your knife. I REPEAT - GET THE BUYERS CHECK, CREDIT, OR DEBIT CARD BEFORE YOU SHIP THE KNIFE.

Frankly, I don't think knife shows are worth much - I'm sure others will disagree. There don't seem to be many good kitchen knife shows. The difference between you and I, however, is that you have a reputation for making good knives while I am just starting out so I need the shows way more than you do. I do see chefs mention you on Kitchenknifeforums but I don't know how you translate that into sales.

As the Aussies say "keep your pecker up, mate".

Tim
Click to expand...

I actually quit my day job to try and live a bit less stressful life, but that just hasn't happened. A big reason being I have chronic pain from nerve damage I sustained in a car accident, so much that I can become ill just from the pain sometimes. I've lost about 10-15% of my muscle mass on my dominant side, my fingers are literally starting to shrivel up because they aren't getting a strong enough nerve signal, so the muscles are atrophying. Customers just plain don't give a shit about that type of thing though, nor does anyone else really IME. Sometimes even loved ones don't really care. Everyone universally views it as whining.


Mudbug007 said:
I'm not sure what the problem is Ian. Your work looks very good, so I'm not sure why someone would threaten to rake you over the coals. I offer a common sense warranty. If it's defective workmanship or materials, I take it back unless it has been abused.

As for paypal, you'll be paying pretty much the same with a merchant account. People in today's society like instant gratification. They want it now. PayPal allows them to have it now. Back in my service biz days, PayPal had cheaper rates than any merchant I could find. So long as I did over 10k a month through them, I got something like 2.5%. I think currently without a merchant account it's 3% + a per transaction charge. I don't think the transaction charge is all that much.

Look around at the different banks and lender institutions that offer merchant accounts and be sure to read the fine print. I think once you do that, you'll see that PP isn't so bad after all.
Click to expand...

I absolutely guarantee my work and my transactions, no questions asked. That means I consider the liability is on me no matter what happens. I don't always love it, but at least I never have to worry whether I did the right thing. I've only had to replace two knives so far for user negligence, and one for a lost shipment. Not too bad. The thing that really gets to me, is having my funds yanked at the customer's whim, with no review or attempt at fairness by the payment processor. It's not a matter of me being willing to make it right, it's a matter of not liking other people making decisions for me without my input. I just feel like with how insanely biased paypal is, perhaps there is at least SOME chance that with a merchant account, they may actually try using their brain before simply giving the money back to the customer.


AVigil said:
Ian...

Shows are very important if you are going to do this full time. There you show your works and take some orders as well as network and buyers love to meet the makers.

Getting your knives handled by a dealer can relieve many customer based headaches. Places like Fort Henry Knives and Les Robertson, Arizona Knives get a lot of traffic.

You could also make a stop at South Coast Cutlery in Costa Mesa mall. Dan has been in buisness for a long time and might carry some of your knives and give you some advice from a professional on sales.

I am going to their show in October. You should go and we could meet up.
Click to expand...

I'm really considering it. Jeff was bugging me about it, but I thought that one was pretty foo-foo high end stuff? I'm not sure if I'm really in that league.


logem said:
Also, I realize that this may be counterproductive to a full-time business model, but don't accept orders . . . or don't accept orders with deadlines if this is a source of stress. Again, if your product is desirable then it should sell. Make the knives on your own schedule without a deadline, and then sell them. This allows increased artistic latitude and maximizes the enjoyment level, in my opinion.

The two knives shown on your website gallery look very nicely done. Keep that gallery up to date and try to market on this website in order to draw people to you. Every time you finish a knife for a customer that you are proud of, post it in the custom knife forum.

Before long, people will be coming to you without having to enter knife shows, etc.

Good luck.

Mike
Click to expand...

I actually stopped officially taking orders, as I was running myself ragged, and disappointing customers. I still do from time to time, but not necessarily openly, and I am a lot smarter about giving myself enough time in my delivery estimates.

I'm not doing myself any favors by not having updated my website in so long. I just really haven't had the time to sit down and do it. I've been working 7 day weeks pretty much since forever. My work has evolved quite a bit since then. This is my most recent piece (shameless photo post):

J3DICa6.jpg
tNqKvWC.jpg
jvgEz5M.jpg
3e4hGDv.jpg
 
Well if that knife is representative of your work, you sure don't have to worry about the quality of your knives. That hunter is superb.

I´m not sure I have any valuable input for you, but being in the process of starting my own business myself (out of which knife making will be a small part), I sympathize with your problems, and will follow this thread.

I will however say that having to work as much as you seem to do, is going to mean trouble in the long run. I speak from personal experience in that matter.

I hope you will find solutions to your problems.

Brian
 
Is there work available to you that you can GO with and will provide you with a living? I believe you are headed for a major break down of your work, and you mental health will of course suffer even more than you are going through now. What about the physical effects you are going through? They just aren't going to stop tomorrow if without a change. Every day of the week and not the satisfaction you need to keep going ? Is there that much funds coming in? Yes this is the quiet time of the year and generally lasts until the end of this month or into October. Do you want to continue making knives? I suggest you do it on a part time basis without a 24 hour demand and one that will allow you to go ahead as you wish making what you wish. Much of what you talk about I have been through in my time before me. No, I do not have the need for a job to provide me with the necessities to get by. On the other hand age has come along to require me to make changes as has a few health issues. I'm not going to give up the knife making I love so much, BUT I have cut my hours back, refuse work that would require me to complete work I don't want to do for whatever reason and as has been suggested long gone with a 50% deposit on and work I do accept to be made.
Several times you have mentioned you are thinking of leaving the knife making. Where would be the loss? You have many more reasons to leave rather than to continue at least full time. You can always write down a to stay column and a to leave one. On paper it certainly seems more definitive.
Last and perhaps my best bit of advice is for you to read over several times the thread you yourself wrote.
I wish you the best. I certainly understand you to be a very hard working individual with honest outlooks for the future. Frank
 
Gody said:
Well if that knife is representative of your work, you sure don't have to worry about the quality of your knives. That hunter is superb.

I´m not sure I have any valuable input for you, but being in the process of starting my own business myself (out of which knife making will be a small part), I sympathize with your problems, and will follow this thread.

I will however say that having to work as much as you seem to do, is going to mean trouble in the long run. I speak from personal experience in that matter.

I hope you will find solutions to your problems.

Brian
Click to expand...

Thanks Brian. That hunter is a reasonable representation of my drop point hunters, which I would say is probably my specialty at this point, although I do many other styles and types.

I know that where I am at is definitely not sustainable. As frank mentioned below, there are a lot of things that can only be answered by self reflection. Sometimes, though, hearing that someone else went through the same thing and came through the other side mostly intact, can be strong medicine.


Frank Niro said:
Is there work available to you that you can GO with and will provide you with a living? I believe you are headed for a major break down of your work, and you mental health will of course suffer even more than you are going through now. What about the physical effects you are going through? They just aren't going to stop tomorrow if without a change. Every day of the week and not the satisfaction you need to keep going ? Is there that much funds coming in? Yes this is the quiet time of the year and generally lasts until the end of this month or into October. Do you want to continue making knives? I suggest you do it on a part time basis without a 24 hour demand and one that will allow you to go ahead as you wish making what you wish. Much of what you talk about I have been through in my time before me. No, I do not have the need for a job to provide me with the necessities to get by. On the other hand age has come along to require me to make changes as has a few health issues. I'm not going to give up the knife making I love so much, BUT I have cut my hours back, refuse work that would require me to complete work I don't want to do for whatever reason and as has been suggested long gone with a 50% deposit on and work I do accept to be made.
Several times you have mentioned you are thinking of leaving the knife making. Where would be the loss? You have many more reasons to leave rather than to continue at least full time. You can always write down a to stay column and a to leave one. On paper it certainly seems more definitive.
Last and perhaps my best bit of advice is for you to read over several times the thread you yourself wrote.
I wish you the best. I certainly understand you to be a very hard working individual with honest outlooks for the future. Frank
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply Frank.

I have strongly considered doing part time work, so that knifemaking can be my escape rather than my burden. It's a very hard thing for me to walk away from completely. I've done a lot of different things over the years, but my primary career was in Aerospace R&D. I loved the challenge and the precision work, and the high standards, but there was absolutely no room for art. It was a very sterile trade as far as creativity goes. Knifemaking is the only thing I've found that lets me put all of my technical skills to work at producing art. There are very few things that can combine the two. In fact knifemaking may in fact be the only thing that combines a wide variety of technical skills and fine art, so equally and wholly.

The hardest thing is that I have found true peace in solitude. There is nothing that makes me happier than playing some good music, and creating things in total isolation. It's just the heavy workload that is killing me. If I could make a sustainable living with just 8-10hrs a day, I would never have a second thought about this being a lifelong career. Right now, a 12hr day is a short day. The only time I seem to be out of the shop is when my fiancé forces me out under threat of living in the doghouse.


My hope has been that as I make a name for myself and build my skills, I will start making better money on each piece, and eventually be able to make a decent living while working reasonable hours. I told my fiancé when I first started, that it would be a minimum of 1-2 years before I started to see any relief in this area. I'm at year one, and I've already started to see an improvement, but it's so hard to tell whether this is as good as it gets, or whether in five years I'll be getting $1k per knife and finishing a dozen a month.


I've heard a lot of guys say something to the effect of "I would have quit a long time ago, but I can't not make knives." I really feel like that sums it up for me. I know that I am still a little baby as far as knifemaking careers go, but I've been doing this long enough full time where I feel like I've gotten the gist of it.

I wouldn't even say I resent the customers that sometimes give me a hard time, as I tend to be a compassionate person, and try to look at every conflict from both sides. It's just that the internet is a jungle, and things can get pretty nasty sometimes when they really need not be. That is a hard thing to swallow for me, as are many of the terrible, needless things that happen in the real world. I'm not sure I could escape that by leaving knifemaking. I know it's just part of life, and some things in life you just have to suck up and accept as they are.



On the strictly business side, a lot of the issues I've been having, I feel will be almost completely solved by the shop upgrades I have planned. I'm going to be bringing in my own Digital HT oven, so I no longer have to rely on outside HT, and have instant response whenever I want stock turned into HT'ed blanks. I'm bringing in a professional saddle stitching machine, so I don't have to spend hours and hours a week stitching sheaths by hand. I'm working several large orders of high quality handle materials, so I can offer the quality I want for my customers, without hours and hours spent searching on a knife by knife basis. I'm bringing in a large stock of types and thicknesses of steel, so I can make any type or quantity of blade I want, without worrying about waiting for a custom steel order to be filled.

It's just a very hard thing as a full timer... there are SO many hats to wear when you're a one man operation, especially if you are operating above the table like I am. I recently spoke with a customer about what a week of life as a knifemaker takes, and it took me an entire paragraph to write out the things that I have to do EVERY week just to make sure the wheels don't fall off (both literally and figuratively).

I always tell my fiancé that it isn't a problem with my ability, nor is it a problem with my sales... the big problem is that I spend SO much time screwing with business related stuff other than making knives (communication, shipping, ordering materials and consumables, sending stuff out, getting stuff in, accounting, cleaning, maintenance, etc.), that I have to work a whole second shift every day just to get any actual work done.
 
Ian, I have faced a lot of your type of problems as well. Here is what I discovered about myself: 1. I don't take any custom orders that I do not want to do. I have clients that ask for knives from partial sketches and scraps of magazines but they really don't know what they want. You are supposed to guess and finish the blade with just the nuance of curve they envision. Some clients will tell me that price is no object and truly do not complain when I ask, for fair remuneration. I now have much less stress. I am learning to say no to projects I don't want to do. I make classical kitchen chef's knives...not very exciting but good blades. I hate making them. family members and close friends have them and I quit. # 2 I WILL NOT MAKE A KNIFE YOU DESIGN IF I FIND IT REPULSIVE. It is no fun for me and the money's never good enough to suffer through one. # 3 I am not hoping to manufacture knives to make a living...that's not art but rather an unrewarding way to become mediocre and get used to it. Where is the satisfaction in that? I am now calm because I will make knives that I want to make and will keep many of them for my collection because they please ME. lastly, I have been trying to force myself to do some of the fun things I used to do before obsessing on knifemaking. The best way for me to keep my head straight is to, decide up ,front that I am not going to depend on knife sales for a living. No more deadlines for knives or sheaths. "Free at last...free at last". Larry
 
Ian, you have been one of the makers on this forum that I have followed very closely since I joined. Though I've not held one of your knives, all the photos I've seen show clean, well made pieces. Every time I see you post one for sale, I think to myself that the price is too low. I base that just off the number of hours that I think it took to complete the knife. Now, try this; take the total number of hours that you work on anything knife related in a week and divide that by the number of knives you finish per week on average. Now, how many hours do you have in a knife? How much are you making while you are killing yourself with these ridiculous hours? Does the business model work? I doubt it. Add to that you live in California where the cost of living is stupid high and it's no wonder you are not happy.

When I retired from the Army in 2008, I had a business plan in hand and plenty of cash and equipment to open the fulltime hotrod shop I'd always dreamed of. What I didn't have was a business model that was capable of sustaining me through one of the worst economic downturns in my lifetime. I closed that shop down last year because after all the struggles, I'd grown to hate it. When I realized I had to stop, it was like a great weight lifted from my shoulders.

At the very least, you have got to make some changes in the way you do business. Your current model is unsustainable. Maybe you get a job and go back to making knives part time or maybe you hire a helper that can shoulder some of the workload. One thing I would say needs to happen is you need to get more money for the quality level of your knives. That means creating more demand. I cannot say I have this figured out as I'm a new maker myself but, I believe buyers buy a knifemaker more than they buy a knife. Go to some shows and meet the people who are passionate about knives. Find a way to get more active in the knifemaking community. Make some knives that you want to make; challenge yourself in your processes, design and materials.

Good luck with this. I think you are making some very nice knives so I hope you can find some balance and happiness in it.

Bob
 
Your problem is you're trying to do too much too fast. This is the problem with jumping in with both feet and going full time so soon.

Nine men and nine women can not make one baby in one month.

There is a sweet spot, and if you're working 80 hour weeks you're over doing it. If you can't make a reasonable income on 50 hours a week then you need to add something different to the mix, not more of the same.

Funny joke:

Two bumpkins decided to open a road side watermelon stand. They bought watermelons from a farmer for $1.00 and sold them on the side of the road for $2. Sales were slow and they didn't make much income. So they dropped their price to $1.50 and sales got better but they weren't making any more money. So they dropped their price to $1.00 and were able to sell an entire truckload in half a day but they made even less money. Not sure what the problem was, they decided to take out a loan and buy a bigger truck...


You're a talented new maker with great quality, but it takes time to become prominent. As you become better known your work will sell better, but making lots of work and selling it too cheap will make your hair fall out.




I like knife shows because you can meet lots of old friends and new people that you won't see on line, but given the time and costs of going to show I prefer to sell online. I can sell just as many knives online in a day as I can at a show and not have to sit behind a table. I recommend you go to a couple shows a year to solidify relationships you form with people face to face, but I wouldn't make them my primary outlet.

No matter where you sell, you're going to have problems occasionally and will sometimes get screwed. It's the cost of doing business, don't internalize it. The few times I've taken it in the shorts hasn't added up to much, and certainly wasn't worth getting worked up about. Take it in stride because at the end of the day it won't put much of a dent in your bottom line, just move on.
 
Good advice Nathan. I had a knife on here awhile back that I put my heart into, hidden tang, hand sanded, perfect guard fit, high quality wood. It simply did not move for about a month or two. I showed it off to some mastersmiths and was told it would probably pass the finish test in Atlanta for JS rating. I learned a lesson from that. I have no name recognition and not everyone wants a highly finished pristine knife. Get a scotch brite belt and a blasting cabinet and starting saving some time.

If I was going to a knife show I would do some highly finished pieces but have some budget stuff too.

Also the knife making thing can seem really disheartening (for me) if I let it interfere with other obligations. I have a day job but I find myself slacking on lawn work and honey do stuff around the house due to tunnel vision on a knife project. Then when something goes wrong with the knife project (seems like it always does), all this other stuff compounds and makes a minor setback feel huge. You are doing way better in less time than I was. Set some limits and hard stop times for the shop, go inside and recreate with whoever is waiting, and finish some blades with a fine scotchbrite.

Also check out all the knife shows you can go to that are within a few hours driving distance. You'll be inspired. That's just my 2 cents though and with the current inflation it probably isn't even worth that much. Good luck.
 
I say keep at it, your work is top notch. For me... I'm making knives and that's all there is to it. What do you want to do the most?

I consider myself a Senior in Knife College now. I just paid off my actual College student loans and feel good being ahead by even a hair in this profession instead of taking out loans. Here in three years I'll have my Knife PhD if I work hard. :D I'm not really joking either... at least about the knife school part, maybe the PhD part. :)

If shows are your thing I say go for it. You also need to market in some way every day to get the word out.

You are the Owner, Maker but also your own Representative and Secretary. It is your job to do all and you need to allocate time for everything... meaning less shop time. 10 hours a day 6 days a week is plenty of shop time... leave time for answering emails and getting the word out about your work.

I hope this helps, you have talent and are a hard worker... stay at it! It takes time.
 
I agree with Shaw. I have very limited name recognition. It's getting much better locally through word of mouth and referrals, but I have only sold a few knives out of my local area. Thankfully I don't have to make a living off of this. Seeing knives that passed the JS test was a huge boost to my ego, as I know where my best work fits now, but it makes me frustrated as I don't have the name recognition, and can't charge those prices. I don't see how going full time would be possible without name recognition.

Ian, I wish you the best, and hope you find your solution. You make very clean knives. Just a thought, with no disrespect intended, but is part of the problem that they can be a bit generic? You have great skills, but I don't see a definitive style that screams "Hall" when I look at them. I am not criticizing, but trying to help you find a solution.
 
Ian, you have gotten some good advice from these folks, Ranger Bob is a fellow who I have been watching with great interest--his knives are damn handsome and well made--as are yours--I will tell you an interesting tidbit. I have come to know and respect Nathan from his posts and goods on this forum. He is obviously a talented dude, and as I build my own shop, I look forward to obtaining some of his 'accessories' like a chilled platen etc.. Having said that I don't think I've even seen a completed knife Nathan has made--I look on the for sale 'folders' and 'fixed blades' forums here at BF's regularly (almost daily) and haven't seen one of his knives. I would however buy one if I saw one he made which I liked and could afford. Several other makers that post on BF's make knives that I truly enjoy and are in my price range, and I buy a fair number of those. I guess my point is, once you get recognized, there are people who will buy your knives--I see blades often that are just out of my range cost wise, but other members come around and take them. I'm not sure what all goes into pricing a knife fairly for a full time maker, but surely these folks around here who post knives frequently, and have been full time makers for many years do know, and many of them make knives in my price range, and their knives get snatched up pretty quickly on BF's. I think a good presence here and on the web in general is a very valuable thing. I will second a lot of what Ranger Bob said, as far as your time, you need to take stock and make a true assessment of things, and only work a genuinely reasonable schedule.

I myself have suffered an disability that sounds somewhat like yours in that I have severe nerve damage and can't feel my feet at all, it also has retarded the nerves in my lower legs, making it difficult to maintain muscle mass in that part of my body. Having said that, I have, and feel that you will, learn what your new limitations or capabilities are, and you have to adjust your life based on this information from learned experience--fainting in your shop and knocking your head open is obviously not acceptable!!

Last .02--probably worth .01 in Cali, is 'hell yeah! get outa there' of course that's what I would say to anybody asking whether to get out of Cali or not. If you ever saw that version of Superman, where Lex Luther had planted nuclear bombs that when set off along fault lines out west, all of Cali would fall into the sea, making a new west coast--everyone sighed "ooooooo" but I said 'yeah that's the ticket' :D

Good luck to you Ian, you make a nice looking knife, I hope you can figure a way where it still makes sense to you to keep on doing so.
 
Hey Fish,

I lived in California for 35 years and my mantra was "when the big one hits, everything east of the Sierras is going to break off and slide into the Atlantic ocean".

Tim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top