Seeking advice (re: shows and online sales, some other things)

Nathan the Machinist said:
There is a sweet spot, and if you're working 80 hour weeks you're over doing it. If you can't make a reasonable income on 50 hours a week then you need to add something different to the mix, not more of the same.
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Nathan is spot on as always.

The quality of your work speaks for itself, and I am quite sure your problems are not because of lack of quality or good looking knives. If you are having problems with crappy customers, stop doing orders. If you are having problems selling what you make, you need to reach a larger market.

For marketing a website is helpful, but all of the cool kids use facebook, Instagram and the like. You can instantly put pictures in front of thousands of peoples faces without them having to look it up in a search engine. If you have a smart phone, you can take in progress pictures and pics of finished work, post it on Instagram and share it on facebook in less than a minute. AND its FREE!

And don't be afraid to share pics of your knives in the Custom and Handmade section here on BF. That's where the collectors hang out. I post my humble shanks there and they haven't kicked me out yet. :cool:
 
Ian,

I hate to see a post like this from you. You are one of my favorite makers to follow and I think your work speaks for itself. All in all you make some of the finest blades on this site for the price--which for the record I think is criminally low. This is just my personal opinion but between your materials, fit and finish, and sheaths, a 4-5in hidden tang from you should be in the 350+ range and not the $200 range.

You have an extensive machining background and my humble advice would be to stop doing things exclusively by hand and start utilizing your machining knowledge to make your blade. A one man show can only be so productive. If you are working 80 hours a week making blades you need to change some things up.

Alot of these points have already been suggested but here are some things you could do to to take some of the pressure off

-Have a few designs you like and mainly offer those--only make custom blades that YOU want to make
- Stop doing grunt work. The only thing you should be doing with your hands is skill specific work like grinding etc...
- waterjet your blanks
- Think about doing CNC handles
- Think about water jetting your guards
- Get someone else to make your sheaths OR charge much more for them. Your sheaths are far too excellent to be thrown in for cheap
- Possibly hire someone to do grunt work, clean your shop, and do secretary work. It may be worth it
- Raise the price of your knives significantly
-If you are working 80 hours a week get a job that has health care and benefits and do that 40 a week and do knives 30.

There's going to be alot better advice in this thread from more experienced and knowledgable guys than myself but I think the advice above is something to consider.

Whatever you do, keep making knives and don't lose your fire!
-
 
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Passing out in the shop is a very, very bad idea. You need a break. I wish I had a quick answer for you, but there simply isn't one. I will say that custom orders and taking deposits can absolutely bury you unless they're rare and extremely profitable... which is seldom the case.



Mudbug007 said:
As for paypal, you'll be paying pretty much the same with a merchant account. People in today's society like instant gratification. They want it now. PayPal allows them to have it now.
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That's how I look at it too. Considering time and hassles, PP works out better for me than waiting for checks/MO's to appear in the mail (which may take weeks, and very often don't appear, leaving you with a knife you took off the market because you thought it was sold).

logem said:
I charge extra for paypal payments.
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You realize you're in direct violation by doing that, right? Play by the rules like everyone else or just don't take PayPal. :grumpy: :thumbdn:

As for shows... it just depends on the shows near you (or however far you're willing to travel). They're all different, ranging from high-end invitationals seeded with high-rollers looking to drop a lot of cash, to basically flea-markets packed with people trying to haggle about $1 on a cheap import knock-off.
 
edit: I give up. The garbage forum software won't even let me post a bare, freshly generated quote with newly written reply, and I've tried on my mobile, both with 4G and wifi, as well as my desktop. Two different internet connections, two different browsers and OS'es.

I responded to all of you and now the forum is doing its stupid "I'm gonna let you write a book and then refuse to let it post unless you delete and totally re-write it" bullshit.

Sorry for not having any quotes to reference for the below replies, but the forum software REFUSES to let me edit in any type of quote, no matter what gymnastics I do.


LARRYZ10
I've had it go both ways on customs... some have been through inspired buyers that came up with genuinely awesome designs that I just didn't have time to address properly, while others have been, just, blech. That has been a big reason that I'm now "off the book" commission, meaning that I don't openly take them, but I don't always deny them either. I don't take them as a general rule though.


RangerBobTX
Thanks Bob. I've heard that a lot, and I guess as humbly as possible, I feel my work is worth more sometimes. Sometimes though, I don't. I have heard repeatedly that my work is worth way more than I ask, but every time I've asked more, I've fallen flat on my face with sales. There's definitely an invisible wall, the problem is I'm not sure where it came from or how to get rid of it. Is it in my head? Too chicken to ask fair prices? Don't have enough recognition? My logo sucks? I just don't have any idea.


Nathan the Machinist
Back at my last day job, we made up a saying amongst the technicians... it was referring to the results of well-intentioned over-engineering by the part of the engineering staff. Basically they would spend weeks or months, and lots of fancy math on engineering something, only for it to end up being a total piece of crap. It was basically poking fun at all that trouble and complex calculation, when a simple formula would suffice:

Suck + Suck = Suck


Shaw Blades
I have been to shows, but not as a knife maker, only as a consumer. I've heard a LOT about them as a maker, though, ranging from they are absolutely necessity to they are the worst possible idea you can have.

I definitely agree with not trying to make every knife your masterwork, but I have found that when I really knock one out of the park such as the hunter above, the customers can smell it even through the photos, and it moves really fast. My old boss used to make fun of me, and tell me that he didn't want it gold plated, just silver or nickel would suffice.

I'm thinking maybe I need to allocate a set schedule at this point, and then adjust the rest of my business to fit. Up until this point I've been fitting my schedule around my business, turns out I'm not superman.


Willie71
I don't agree or disagree with you on the style thing. I've heard polar opposites about my work. I've had quite a few people tell me that they can always tell one of my knives because they have a clean minimalist look, and a distinctive style. Then I've had someone say (about the same knife mind you) that it looks too much like a factory knife, so they don't like it. A bit ambiguous to make any real plan from unfortunately.

One thing I have found is that while I get showered with kind words whenever I do something really wild, they tend to sell like crap. Everybody loves them, nobody wants them. Then a blade like my drop hunter pattern sells like hotcakes. I've also found that some of my best pieces ever were based on early bowies, which I suppose is about as unoriginal as you can get.


Fish30114
Thanks! Unfortunately, the fiancé, who makes 5x what I do (literally, it's a bit sad actually), is heavily rooted here in California, and my siblings are in Florida, Idaho, and Arizona, so I can't really move closer to any of them unless I were to move to Vegas, which probably a sidegrade from California in some ways. Plus we just bought our first home a few months ago. I'm stuck here for at least a decade I'd suppose.


tim37a
Hell, maybe if that happened it would be a good thing for me at this point?


BenR.T.
I mentioned above, but seeing as I was into it last night, I went through and totally cleaned house on my website. I'm pretty happy with the new version. I do have some exposure from social networking and local word of mouth, but probably not as much as I need.

In reality, it isn't a matter of exposure, more just that I can't break through into a pricing tier that supports my business. Alternately, I can't make knives in the pricing tier I'm in, fast enough to live comfortably.


Huntsman Knife Co.
Hunter, thanks for the advice. I definitely feel like I'm underpricing my work, but whenever I try to make a big leap in price, or even a small leap for that matter, they just end up sitting and I have to drop the prices anyways. So while I feel and many others feel that my work is worth more, it doesn't seem to sell for more.


james terrio
Yeah, that's the second time that has happened to me in my whole life, and it was another big reason I made this thread. Normally I like to try and figure this stuff out on my own, but I realized if I didn't talk this out with my friends and colleagues, I would just keep going in circles. Sometimes to you need to be told even if you pretty much know the answer.
 
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I'd like to say, posts like this are why I love BF. I'm happy to read and learn.

I have nothing very constructive to add except this: if you are working so hard that you're paying out in the shop, you're working too hard. Something has to give. I went into the hospital twice last year as a result of my body failing from to many 96+ hour weeks (paramedic in a big city, we never sleep it seems.) Sooner or later YOU WILL GET HURT. It takes half a second to sustain a life changing injury. Don't let it happen to you.
 
HallHandmade said:
In reality, it isn't a matter of exposure, more just that I can't break through into a pricing tier that supports my business. Alternately, I can't make knives in the pricing tier I'm in, fast enough to live comfortably.
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Then you don't have a sustainable business model. If you keep going, you won't be running a knife business, you'll be running a knife charity. You have to decide what you want to do.
 
Brian.Evans said:
Then you don't have a sustainable business model. If you keep going, you won't be running a knife business, you'll be running a knife charity. You have to decide what you want to do.
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Watch, I bet after all the crap above it lets me quote you.

The problem here is that my model is sustainable in theory, but not in practice, and I can't figure out where the difference comes from. I've had a lot of guys in the know telling me that my work should be selling for more, but it isn't. This is makers and customers. Maybe it is an exposure/name thing. On the other hand, name only matters so much. A fine knife is a fine knife, and many buyers know exactly what they're looking at.

I'm not going to convert the guys that refuse to buy from anyone buy big names, so they don't come into my equation at all. By default, my buyers will all be folks who are more concerned about the knife than the name on it, besides my friends, fans, and supporters.
 
There are several epic threads about pricing. There is a good one in the "business" forum on knife dogs, and a good one on Usual suspect where Ken Onion even chimes in. No doubt there are some good ones on Bladeforums also, but they're probably old. Pricing is difficult, especially when knives are your job.

I've used two main strategies to improve my pricing, with mixed results. I still take orders, but I always quote them a little high. I make what I want. If I make what you want, it costs a bit more. The other thing that does, since most of my orders are just variations of my usual work, is that it serves as an anchor point for similar knives in the future. You can honestly say "I sold the last one just like that for XX" without having to explain that the last one was quoted 10% high.

The second thing I've done is give myself "raises" for media exposure. When I first broke into print, I increased my prices a little. That's a measureable way to decide when your "name is out there" enough to increase.

All that said, supply and demand laws make it pretty clear that the lower priced stuff sells faster. I get mostly what I ask for my knives, but now they take longer to move. If I want to sell some fast ones, I can make some cheaper ones... machine finish, simple construction, etc. If I want to make more money, I can make some nicer ones, but I expect to hold on to them a bit longer. It takes both the fast sales and the high prices in balance with each other. We'd all like to have fast sales AND high prices, but I just don't see it happening that way for 99% of knifemakers.
 
One thing too is I definitely don't see the overall economy improving. A lot of makers with major name recognition probably still sell stuff easily but I think across the board most people have cut back. Pricing is a tough thing to figure out, I imaging especially hard for full time makers.
 
Jason, that's some good advice. I've actually considered just going full blown crazy-nuts, and learning engraving and making just one or two art knives a week.

Shaw Blades said:
One thing too is I definitely don't see the overall economy improving. A lot of makers with major name recognition probably still sell stuff easily but I think across the board most people have cut back. Pricing is a tough thing to figure out, I imaging especially hard for full time makers.
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I agree, the economy is a worrisome thing, and I've noticed a difference just in the time that I've been doing this.

On the flip side, I've noticed the made in USA and re-shoring movement really start to take off as average Joe slowly realizes the damage done to our economy by the Walmart effect. I've been getting more and more customers directly stating to me that they went outside of their budget range and bought one of my blades specifically to support a small American business.
 
Ian, do you make many kitchen knives? I make probably 10 kitchen knives for every hunter/skinner/edc I make. My first ones were basic, but now that I have a better sense of the geometry, and handle design, I have some chefs using my knives. I like making bowies and fighters, but don't have the name recognition for knives above $XXX.XX. I do them as gifts, for myself, and a handful of people who have bought a lot of knives from me. I can get a fair price for my kitchen knives, but it took me 18 months of experimenting to dial in my geometry. The other thing is paring knives and edc's that only take a few hours to make. They help with name recognition, and are stress free balance wise between price and work involved. I also find that once wives have a few nice knives in the kitchen, they are pretty open to a Bowie as a show piece for the husband.
 
Ian,
I and many other makers have a variety of health issues. LOL We as a group are in really sad shape! LOL
More so than any other group I know of?

First,
Knife making is a hard dirty dangerous work that's a tough nut to bust financially! It always has been and always will be a labor intensive and costly endeavor.
Anyone that says different, hasn't made many knives for very long. I also am here in Callyfornia! I have a love hate relationship with the state!

First I want to say that I am by no means a recognized name in knife making but I have been able to make a living from it and sharpening since 1996-98 when there was barely any internet .

Here a few things I have found by being full time with a host of physical disabilities compared to any other man of 56 years old.

1)I always get at least 5o% up front or I don't take the commission.

2) If you haven't yet dealt with an out right jerk/customer that complaints about everything?
You my friend haven't sold very many knives!

3) The knives get finished on my time table. Not theirs. I of course do my best to accommodate my customers but I am not going to aggravate the titanium rods that are in my spine over a week or so in completion date.
I tell most of my customers up front that I can only make so many knives and I ask for their patience and if they are really on a tight dead line perhaps they should order from another maker? I try to have at least of of each of my pattens ready for sale. If they want a different handle? It will be a while.

4) I have built up a good amount of word of mouth by living in the same place, having my meager site up and attending a few shows. I Haven't done a knife show in years.

5) I will accept paypal or square if there isn't another option for small sharpening work amounts but I tell customers upfront that I cheerfully accept cash, personal checks and Money Orders.

6) In spite of what everyone tells you about how well they did at the show? I find that there will be one or two makers with the latest tactical folders that were in the last issue of Blade mag etc that will sell out and most are lucky to break even on the event. You may overtime build up a client of folks by having your rear planted at such & such show every year. I think there are other more cost effective ways to build my knife biz to the level I can handle. Shows are rather expensive. Bladefourms for $75.00 a year is about the best deal around for exposure to a custom knife buying market. I have only sold one of here I think? I mostly sell my Finger Skins and when I have supplies to move. My work of mouth generates what I need most of the time. This is the slow season now for most.

Let me repeat that. You want to build up a business that you can handle without stressing yourself out so much that you pass out in your shop or have a severe accident and lose some digits or something because you are to exhausted to stay focused.

7)EVERYONE I deal with during the day from the teller at the bank to the shoe repair to my pharmacist etc know that I make and sharpen culinary knives. I have my Avatar logo you see on the breast pocket of my shirts and on the ball caps I wear in the shop and around town. I keep my Rhino biz cards in that same pocket really to be handed to any prospective customer.

So I'm over Santa Monica Ian and if you would ever like to talk about Life, Liberty and the pursuit of making and selling knives? Feel free to give me a call. I certainly don't have all of the answers but can share what has worked or didn't work for me and perhaps we can figure it out between the two of us and have a few laughs too!


Last,
Remember to take 10 deep slow breathes and stand with your posture as superman like as possible when it seems the walls are closing in. You will be suprized how much better you will feel.

Standing in super man pose with perfect posture has been shown to bump up your testosterone level by a measurable amount! That always make us men feel better.

Shoot me a call some time! My number is on both of my sites.
 
james terrio said:
Quote Originally Posted by logem
"I charge extra for paypal payments."

You realize you're in direct violation by doing that, right? Play by the rules like everyone else or just don't take PayPal. :grumpy: :thumbdn:
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James,

No, I didn't know this. Thanks for letting me know. I will confirm this and cease my practice or stop allowing Paypal payments, which is highly unlikely since it is a very useful payment system.

Truly,

Mike
 
Ian, I like your logo and think it is smart to use your name. It looks good. It seems to me that your real problem is stressing over making a living of what should be enjoyable. Don't get me wrong...I do it also and am fighting it all the time. When you don't want to do something or be pressured just say "no" or make a plausible excuse. Working under pressure is awful and potentially dangerous. I think your knives are great and I would charge a little more for them. Don't give up....just make a new plan, one with less stress. I hope you work it out. Be happy and send more photos. Larry
 
Ian, I may not know too much about making knives, but I have quite a bit of experience working crazy hours, being sleep deprived and stressed out, and if I may I'd like to share three very important lessons I learned only recently.

1. Get enough sleep. I used to pride myself on how little sleep I could run on, staying at the office until late, coming home and sleeping for a few hours, then getting up and going back in. Now I realize how foolish it was, not because I wasn't being fair to myself, but because I wasn't being fair to my job. 8, 10, or 12 hours of work by a well-rested person is better than 16 or 18 hours of work from a zombie. Your brain just doesn't function as well on no sleep and if you're doing work that is in any way cognitively demanding or that requires any measure of concentration, your output will suffer drastically. And so will your mood. Sleep-deprived, I am cranky, sad, short-tempered, and in general no fun to be around. I focus on all the bad things instead of the good and things can get pretty bleak pretty quickly. It is not a good road to go down. Well-rested, I can deal with bad and focus on the good.

2. Exercise every day. Exercise is the magic bullet for stress. I try to get at least get 10 minutes of exercise in the morning by going on a quick jog (they say 30 min is best) and there is a night and day difference on the days when I skip it b/c I wanna sleep in or because I'm "too busy." My brain and body will feel sluggish, and I'll be more prone to worry about the little stuff for the sake of the big picture. With exercise my brain just works better.

3. Find balance. By this I mean find something besides your job to shift some of the emphasis of your energy. Whether it's spending time with family, friends, a hobby, or whatever. Again, this is not because work should be less important. It is because it will help you to do your work better. When all you do is work, you become stressed. Stress hurts performance. Period. If you've got something to shift the balance away from your job temporarily, the time you put in at work will be more focused and you'll work more efficiently.

Hang in there brother. You're knives are as good as any I've seen. Things will improve.

-Mike
 
logem said:
James,

No, I didn't know this. Thanks for letting me know. I will confirm this and cease my practice or stop allowing Paypal payments, which is highly unlikely since it is a very useful payment system.

Truly,

Mike
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Fair enough; sorry I came off harsh. It's just part of the standard user agreement.
 
I have a family reunion today, and am trying to get some last minute work done before I leave to meet my fiance. I just wanted to stop in and say I read through the new replies, and I sincerely appreciate the time you all have spent discussing this with me. I'll reply further once I'm back in tomorrow.

I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about things, and this thread is a big part of the reason why.

On a side note, I am *really* dense, because even after all of this wise advice, I stayed up all night in the shop again. I did get an extremely good night's sleep yesterday though. I'll be doing quite a bit of napping on the lakeside later today, I expect. :)
 
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