Seeking Info On WWII Japanese Sword...

Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
36
Trying to find some info/background on this sword. My late uncle brought it back from the Pacific Theater when he returned from WWII. He didn't talk much about what my mom told me was the extensive combat he had been involved in. The only thing ever said about this sword is that he took it from a japanese soldier ( I seem to recall "officer", but I was very young and it was a long time ago) who "didn't need it anymore". This sword was given to me by my mom in the mid 80's, and I've simply stored it ever since.

As you can see from the photos, the blade is about 22" in length. It's very dense, and extremely sharp. The handle is designed for one handed use. It is covered in ray or shark skin, has what appears to be a metal bee or wasp on each side, and is then wrapped in cloth.

The sheath is wood, covered by a metal I suspect may be copper.

This sword is surprisingly heavy and well balanced for it's compact size. It's easy to see what a fearsome close in weapon it would have been to face.

Any info or background would be appreciated

sword1.jpg


sword2.jpg


sword4.jpg


sword5.jpg


sword3.jpg
 
One of the best things to do to retain the value of the sword (assuming value as the pics are not really clear) is to NOT clean it with caustics or abrasives, sharpen it or chop stuff. It is a different sword than most I have seen. Not to say it is 'something', just different. If you can manage to push the peg out of the handle to see the tang, see if there are any markings there designating the smith. Do NOT clean the tang! The patina is a valuable index to verify age!
Here is one site where you can research and learn the care and handling of your sword. Beware! Japanese swords seem to be very addicting to some people.
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

BTW: My dad was in Japan with the USAF in the late 40s. He says he had an old sword (wakasashi) he recieved from an old man in a village where he was taking pictures. In his scramble to get on a military transport (he is always late!) he left it in the trunk of a taxi.... Damn! I do have some great photos though.....
 
Yeah, see if you can get to the tang, the bamboo pins in the handle should just push out. The take some good close up pics or do a trace with paper and a pencil and I will ask my wife to translate the markings (if there are any) I dont know much about swords but I can at least help you out with the name if there is one.
 
nd -
You appear to have a wakizashi (short sword, under 24 inch blade), in
'buke' zukuir" (samurai) mounts as opposed to gunto (military) mounts.
The handle wrapping is ray skin, not shark skin. The lacing is called "ito"
and is likely silk. The guard (tsuba) is a katchushi style, perhaps
Tadatsugu school.

My website (mentioned above) has info you may find
useful. If that site is offline, try the mirror site at:

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

If you can remove the handle (but pushing out the bamboo peg and sliding
the handle off the end of the tang) you can see if the tang is signed.
If it is, post a legible pic of the Kanji and I'll see if I can translate it for you.

Rich
 
I'm not really interested in it's monetary value, more so it's history. I have always wondered if it went to war as a family heirloom, and should properly be returned to the late Japanese soldier's next of kin...

To my knowledge, this sword has never been sharpened or used. in fact, I think after it was brought back, my uncle wanted nothing more to do with it or anything else that had to do with the war. I only recall seeing him take out out twice, when we kids begged him to see it. He also had a box full of decorations he was awarded, and never took them out, either...

My mom (his sister) told me he was involved in some of the most horrendous fighting in the Pacific Theater, particularly in the Phillipines...
 
nd -

Don't EVER try to sharpen it. I've seen more Japanese swords ruined by
amateur sharpening and polishing than by any other means. Also unless
you know for certain the Japanese soldier's family's name and current
address, the chances of ever returning it are basically nil.

Since this sword doesn't show any of the WW II type mountings, even
modifications to mount for use in WW II, I doubt it ever saw combat
during the war. In order for it to be carried by a Japanese soldier in WW II
it would have needed some sort of mounting modifications. It may be
that those were removed post-war by someone in your family (like
a leather scabbard cover or suspension rings).

Can't begin to evaluate the sword from the pictures. I would suggest
just lightly oiling it with a light machine oil and keeping it and passing
it down thru your family as a momento of your uncle's service to
our country.

Rich
 
try your question for the folks over at sword forum international.

very knowledgable people there.
 
The fighting in the Phillipines was absolutely horrific; I'm not surprised that your uncle didn't want to talk about it. My dad saw action on Tinian (sp?) and Saipan; he never wanted to discuss it much either. He brought home an officer's sword in Gunto mounting; he got it the 'hard way' as well.

SFI (as stated above) would be a very good place to get info. There are also some very knowledgeable people on myArmoury.com. Good luck.
 
Well, from wad I know, most Japanese swords during the WWII do not have any value as they were all mass produced and not hand forged by the blacksmith. So most of it would be low quality steel and lousy blades. From the blade, it seems to be diffrent from those that I saw in my country. Maybe it was from a diffrent battalion of Japanese troops.
 
Yes, there were many machine made swords specifically produced for the war. That a sword was used/acquired in WW2 does not necessarily mean it was made for that war. The possibilty is strong that many old (and what Japan might consider as National Treasures) were taken into battles and even on kamikazi missions with pilots. The only way to truely tell about the sword is to take the time and spend some money having it properly appraised by at least one expert. WE are not likely to answer this one from a few pictures on the internet.... a knowledgable person with it in his hands will be able to read far more of this story. The possibility is there....
 
The tsuba is cast iron and pierced and is consistent with an old blade, although it is easy to put an old tsuba on an newer blade. You need it professionally appraised and then you will have the history. After that you would be best to have the blade polished by a Japanese sword polisher. Many 'family blades' were taken to war, I have two Circa 1395 - 1425.

http://www.angelic.org/highlander/swordmakers/motoyasu.html

Oh yes, and if you do find the tang is signed, never try to clean it up to make it clearer. The rusting is a great indication to age.
 
ok, wad you can do is go to your local Japanese Community and see if any one there knows any thing about WWII Katana. I think they should tell you quite alot!
 
Actually, looking at this sword again, nothing is consistant with it being a WW11 officers carry sword. It should have a metal saya (sheath) a leather combat cover and a metal cap (kabuto gane) to the hilt with a loop for hanging a rank braid tassel. The Obi-tori for hanging the sword on a belt would be a metal ring, whereas yours in bone inlaid into a slot in the wood. I would guess yours is made of laquered wood which can and does look like metal.

Take a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/military.htm

I still think it is an old family blade that was taken to war. Get it appraised.

And ACwire, I think it would be very rude to take the sword to a Japanese community. They are a proud people and they surrendered.
 
WEll, I believe that is the only way to get it done properly. You can take it to them, tell them that you want to know more about that Katana. Ask for the local Japanese blacksmith. He may have a slight answer.
 
Just a couple of minor points, I'm not sure where Mr. ndterminator actually lives but unless he lives in Japan the chances of simply wandering down to the Japanese community and finding anyone that knows anything about swords would seem to be about as good as the chances of wandering down to Little Italy and finding someone that knows something about swords. I'm not sure even being able to read Japanese would be of much help as it is my understanding that ancient and modern Japanese are not the same things. Japanese Blacksmiths????
 
WEll, If the Japanese in your local town believes in Shintoism, then the chances are that they would have a blacksmith, or at least a person well verse in sword making. This is because for every new born Japanese, they would order a set of knive, one Katana and one Wakazashi, to be placed in the house. The two swords acts as a sign of birth and is a present from the parents to their child. The two swords will be kept throughout the life of the child and finally buried with the person when he has died.
 
acwire_2125 said:
WEll, If the Japanese in your local town believes in Shintoism, then the chances are that they would have a blacksmith, or at least a person well verse in sword making. This is because for every new born Japanese, they would order a set of knive, one Katana and one Wakazashi, to be placed in the house. The two swords acts as a sign of birth and is a present from the parents to their child. The two swords will be kept throughout the life of the child and finally buried with the person when he has died.

It's my understanding that there are only about 3-4 million adherents to Shintoism world wide most of whom live in Japan. I've never heard of the two swords thing although perhaps you could be referring to the Shintai? Shintai are an object of veneration or luck kept in a house by a Shinto family but as often as not it is a mirror or a wooden figure as a sword. A source on the bit about the katana and wakizashi for a practicer of Shinto would be informative for me as I've never heard that one before. A blacksmith does not make swords but rather items like nails and horse shoes and pot hooks. A Japanese swordsmith goes through a much more extensive training period and to my knowledge there are very few Japanese swordsmiths operating outside of Japan. If someone knows differently about any of the above please feel free to correct me. Japanese swords and shintoism are by no means an area that I'm expert in.
 
If you want the biggest repository of information on Japanese swords I know of, including a great deal on the markings on the tang, google for "japanese sword index."

Couple of points on care: first, never touch the blade with your hands, as the steel is pretty high carbon, and your natural finger oils will eventually etch into the metal. Second, never, ever try to sharpen it yourself; if the blade is actually handmade and not factory (look for an armorer's mark on the tang), the final polishing was done by a second master after the blade was forged by a first master, each a specialist. They used varying thicknesses of rice paper as the only abrasive, with the final one being considerably thinner and less abrasive than a Kleenex (!) And third, if you oil it, make sure the lubricant is totally acid free; carbon again. The traditional care given to a prized sword was to clean it once every two weeks with clove oil. In the interim, if it wasn't needed for anything sanguine, it would be hung unsheathed on two pegs in a place of honor. Oh, one other thing: it's probably not a good idea to keep it in its scabbard, especially it it's made of wood, as it will eventually cause very noticible brownish discoloration of the steel, and nothing you dare put on the blade will remove it.

Actually, once you read around on the site I mentioned, you'll pick up enough info to tell whether the blade was a wartime factory job or a handmade one. There were still a few masters making swords during the war. One possible indicator of its age is the copper band around the first inch or so of the blade, right after the hilt. That was usually only found on wartime blades, although it turned up (rarely) during the Meijei Restoration. As for seeking out a Japanese community, make sure it isn't in Japan; if the blade was made during the period 1929 to 1945 (I think it was 1929, anyway), it's illegal to even possess it in Japan. And "Kill Bill" notwithstanding, it's also illegal to carry any katana openly. They're all licensed, and to go on the street with one, you have to carry it in a special locked case with its serial number tag affixed to the outside; any police or military official can demand to see the tag and force you to open the case so he can verify its authenticity. And Japanese jails are anything but pleasant.

My father brought a daikatana (one longer than roughly two feet, as the prefix means something like "great" or "long") from Iwo Jima, but he came by it the easy way. He was a coxswain's mate on a landing craft, and one of the Marines from his boat came back down to the beach and asked him to hold it for him in the coxswain's tiny cockpit. Unfortunately for the Marine, he never came back. It was mint, and likely an officer's sword made in 1944, but, I think, by hand, as it has all the telltale indications in terms of hardening of the edge, a billow pattern of the secondary hardening, mica flecks on either side of the edge of the billow, and a distinct and slightly irregular grain pattern down the length of the sword. Other things too, but I'm talking too much already.

I have what's left of the blade in a place of honor in my work area. My father gave it to my younger brother (after much wheedling) and the first thing he did with it was chop down a stand of two-inch saplings with it. One stroke per tree. Sadly, it damaged the blade severly, totally destroyed the hilt windings, and since he didn't bother to clean the tree sap off of it, the leading seven inches are edgeless and badly pitted (katana often have small round carbon nodules throughout the steel, and the sap had taken the surface off the tip of the blade and eaten into every nodule it could reach). Then he didn't want it any more and gave it to me. Then claimed I stole it. Much loss of face <g>.

I have minor hopes of restoring it as much as possible, as I, too, regard it as a family heirloom. Oh, incidentally, no handmade katana was totally shiny; any marks left over from the year-long forging and polishing were regarded as part of the character of the blade, and not to be removed, just as the tang was never to be cleaned.
 
Urban Cyborg said:
If you want the biggest repository of information on Japanese swords I know of, including a great deal on the markings on the tang, google for "japanese sword index."

Couple of points on care: first, never touch the blade with your hands, as the steel is pretty high carbon, and your natural finger oils will eventually etch into the metal. Second, never, ever try to sharpen it yourself; if the blade is actually handmade and not factory (look for an armorer's mark on the tang), the final polishing was done by a second master after the blade was forged by a first master, each a specialist. They used varying thicknesses of rice paper as the only abrasive, with the final one being considerably thinner and less abrasive than a Kleenex (!) And third, if you oil it, make sure the lubricant is totally acid free; carbon again. The traditional care given to a prized sword was to clean it once every two weeks with clove oil. In the interim, if it wasn't needed for anything sanguine, it would be hung unsheathed on two pegs in a place of honor. Oh, one other thing: it's probably not a good idea to keep it in its scabbard, especially it it's made of wood, as it will eventually cause very noticible brownish discoloration of the steel, and nothing you dare put on the blade will remove it.

Actually, once you read around on the site I mentioned, you'll pick up enough info to tell whether the blade was a wartime factory job or a handmade one. There were still a few masters making swords during the war. One possible indicator of its age is the copper band around the first inch or so of the blade, right after the hilt. That was usually only found on wartime blades, although it turned up (rarely) during the Meijei Restoration. As for seeking out a Japanese community, make sure it isn't in Japan; if the blade was made during the period 1929 to 1945 (I think it was 1929, anyway), it's illegal to even possess it in Japan. And "Kill Bill" notwithstanding, it's also illegal to carry any katana openly. They're all licensed, and to go on the street with one, you have to carry it in a special locked case with its serial number tag affixed to the outside; any police or military official can demand to see the tag and force you to open the case so he can verify its authenticity. And Japanese jails are anything but pleasant.

My father brought a daikatana (one longer than roughly two feet, as the prefix means something like "great" or "long") from Iwo Jima, but he came by it the easy way. He was a coxswain's mate on a landing craft, and one of the Marines from his boat came back down to the beach and asked him to hold it for him in the coxswain's tiny cockpit. Unfortunately for the Marine, he never came back. It was mint, and likely an officer's sword made in 1944, but, I think, by hand, as it has all the telltale indications in terms of hardening of the edge, a billow pattern of the secondary hardening, mica flecks on either side of the edge of the billow, and a distinct and slightly irregular grain pattern down the length of the sword. Other things too, but I'm talking too much already.

I have what's left of the blade in a place of honor in my work area. My father gave it to my younger brother (after much wheedling) and the first thing he did with it was chop down a stand of two-inch saplings with it. One stroke per tree. Sadly, it damaged the blade severly, totally destroyed the hilt windings, and since he didn't bother to clean the tree sap off of it, the leading seven inches are edgeless and badly pitted (katana often have small round carbon nodules throughout the steel, and the sap had taken the surface off the tip of the blade and eaten into every nodule it could reach). Then he didn't want it any more and gave it to me. Then claimed I stole it. Much loss of face <g>.

I have minor hopes of restoring it as much as possible, as I, too, regard it as a family heirloom. Oh, incidentally, no handmade katana was totally shiny; any marks left over from the year-long forging and polishing were regarded as part of the character of the blade, and not to be removed, just as the tang was never to be cleaned.

Do you know who developed and maintains that site?
 
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