Seeking knowledge.

[HK2001]

First.. the story..
Sometime near christmas, I'll be leaving the toasty warm comfort of Florida, and I'll be going to just a hair south of the US/Canada border. While I'm up there getting to know my future in-laws better.. I want to sneak off for 2-3 days to get in some chilly R&R. I'm expecting snow, snow, and sub-zero high temps.

Now.. the questions..

Am I nuts?

I'm planning on going out without shelter.. probably not even a tarp. I'm thinking of attempting a snow insulated A-frame.

Will this keep me alive? Someone must have this kind of experiance.

Thick wool socks.. Gortex Balaclava, Fleece, more Gortex.. that I understand.
But what about legs? Is the best option to pretend like I'm in elementary school again an wear snowpants?
Boots? I was looking at These boots. Anyone have personal experiance with them?
Gloves? I can't find anything that even remotely looks like I'll retain any dexterity with them on.
For a sleeping bag, I'm leaning towards the Mil issued ECWS system. I've heard good things about it, and the bags can be seperated for use in other climates.

Since everything that goes into the woods with me, also needs to go on the plane, I'm probably going to be down to the famous "what 10 things would you bring" situation.

The list so far is:
Mag/Ferro block
Blade
Sidearm (Wolves, bear... nuff said)
PowerBars
Soup (canned) for a little simplicity.
SAK/Multitool
Nag bottle for water.
Paracord.

Any suggestions, comments, concerns are more then welcome. Thanks for the help, I really want to do this.

 

[alco141]

answer to first question is yes. these temperatures will kill you in short order , better to go really well prepared and the slowly try new things, than to try a total emersion in the killer cold scenario. then try to do without one thing at a time, and see how minimalist you can get. you need a large pot to boil, thaw ice/snow, you need an axe to chop through a frozen stream to get the running water . you need a snow shovel if you want to move a lot of snow.

alex

 

[Codger_64]

First.. the story..
Sometime near christmas, I'll be leaving the toasty warm comfort of Florida, and I'll be going to just a hair south of the US/Canada border. While I'm up there getting to know my future in-laws better.. I want to sneak off for 2-3 days to get in some chilly R&R. I'm expecting snow, snow, and sub-zero high temps.

You have made the first step toward acquiring knowledge, grasshopper. You seek it!

Now.. the questions..Am I nuts? .

Nuts is a relative state of being. If you are prepared for your adventure, then no, you are quite sane (other factors set aside for the moment).

I'm planning on going out without shelter.. probably not even a tarp. I'm thinking of attempting a snow insulated A-frame...Will this keep me alive? Someone must have this kind of experiance..

Ah yes...experience, the best teacher (assuming one survives). Plan for adventure according to your dreams, but also plan for your dreams to go South...er, North. Your shelter is doable, but I would add a lightweight waterproof tarp of some sort. When you count on sub-freezing temps, it will turn off warmer, and your snow insulated shelter will not hold water. Or something like that.

Thick wool socks.. Gortex Balaclava, Fleece, more Gortex.. that I understand.
But what about legs? Is the best option to pretend like I'm in elementary school again an wear snowpants? ..

ECWS is a system, more than just a sleeping bag. Look it over, then visit a good outdoor store, online or brick-n-mortar. For inspiration, rent the video "Fargo", I think it is, the one with the woman sheriff. The winter scenery will give you an idea of what you plan to subject yourself to.

Boots? I was looking at These boots. Anyone have personal experiance with them?..

See the winter boot thread.

Gloves? I can't find anything that even remotely looks like I'll retain any dexterity with them on..

Again, think layers. Fingers stay warmer in mitts, and wool liner gloves with slotted hunter's mitts work well.

For a sleeping bag, I'm leaning towards the Mil issued ECWS system. I've heard good things about it, and the bags can be seperated for use in other climates. ..

The ECWS bags are good, though heavier and bulkier than commercial versions. You didn't mention your transportation or distance on the planned trek.

Since everything that goes into the woods with me, also needs to go on the plane, I'm probably going to be down to the famous "what 10 things would you bring" situation.

The list so far is:
Mag/Ferro block
Blade
Sidearm (Wolves, bear... nuff said)
PowerBars
Soup (canned) for a little simplicity.
SAK/Multitool
Nag bottle for water.
Paracord..

Be certain you firearm is NOT going into Canada! If it does, and the constabulary catches you, you WILL have a warm place to sleep. Likewise with the airline. No canned food unless you like soupcicles and have a packmule. Freeze dried is the only way to go.

.......I really want to do this.

Then you will. Be prepared is good advice. Did Sir Baden Powell come up with that?
Codger

 

[not2sharp]

First.. the story..
I want to sneak off for 2-3 days to get in some chilly R&R. I'm expecting snow, snow, and sub-zero high temps.

Now.. the questions..

Am I nuts?

Yes.

Survival is something one does when they have no better option. These temperatures can kill or injure within hours. Meeting the in-laws should be challanging enough for most. If you want to go hiking, then make sure you have adequate equipment, supplies, and skills to make it go smoothly. The first lasting you leave with the inlaws shouldn't be made as you are carried into a hospital emergency room.

BTW, congrats and good luck!

n2s

 

[Ravaillac]

People with some sense try things and train in a safe environnement before experiencing in the field. Why don't you try "conventionnal" cold climate camping/expedition before trying the over-the-top stuff?

 

[pict]

If you wan to try the cold weather survival thing I highly suggest you pack in a decent, small two man tent, ground pad, and a warm bag as a back-up. I don't see this a s a cop out at all but cheap insurance that will save your life if things turn ugly.

You can build a decent shelter and fire and keep yourself warm but this is trianing as others have said and you don't have to put yourself in danger to realistically evaluate your skills and gain firsthand experience.

You could even take someone else with you who is camped in the tent with their own bag (and an extra for you) and you do your thing along side or nearby. Mac (What's the gun?")

 

[gallowglass]

HK2001,

Sounds like a fun thought problem, but:

The fire combined with the snow shelter combined with your exprience will most likely kill you. It's real easy to get real wet and then drop your snow shelter on your fire. Then you're real dead.

The soup will freeze and will be hard to eat and open. Eating a soupcicle won't help hunger much. Especially the hunger caused by lugging canned goods around in the snow.

The powerbars, and I hope you are using that term as a generic, will freeze and be unchewable. That's bad as your caloric requirements are going to increase fivefold. Have you ever tried cooking for real over a fire? Freezed dried food and a stove are a lot easier, cleaner, and faster.

Eating snow as water, which you may be planning to do, will also cost you a lot of calories and not really help hydrate you very fast. Without a teapot,(giga ti pot rocks) you will have a hard time melting enough water and not spilling it.

Pict is dead on about the ground pad. Mountain hardware makes the cold weather best, a combo closed and open foam monster, but it's around $350. A long thermarest on top of packed snow and evergreen boughs will work. It will be a lot easier for you to die without a ground pad. Remember that you are not cold wilderness experienced.

If you are going to depend on firewood for heat, at the very least you will want a hatchet and a small saw and a change of gloves.

In this situation, with an unknown distance trek and undefined weather, I would lean towards a thick wool long coat rather than gortex. Without snowshoes or X-country skies, you won't be real mobile, which is were the goretex shines.

Wolves? They may come after your carcass. Bears? At christmas? Bears are pretty sleepy that time of year unless it gets warm enough, long enough, that you'll need some bug repellent. By all means take a gun, but moose and dogs and man are bigger threats. IF you do take a gun, remember that real cold weather requires special lube.

Take 2 nalgenes, one to pee in at night so you don't have to get out of your sleeping bag, if you are smart and take one.

Speaking of sleeping bags, I've done quite a bit of cold weather camping and fair weather camping and jungle camping. Stay away from the military stuff. The good commerical stuff blows away the military stuff. When I was at Fort Benning, I used to go to REI and weep for what they had. First time I ever wore a camel back on a ruck march, (93?)I got laughed at. The military doesn't do gear well. They adapt late, buy cheap, and use a "good enough" philosophy.

A good cold weather bag is going to cost you some serious money and it will be well worth it. Down or poly or down with a waterproof shell or a combo. Mummy or crazy leg or box cut...there's a lot of choices to be made in the bag alone.

If I had to take just ten items, besides my clothes---and I'd kill to get out of that limitation, I would take :

1)A Black diamond megamid, because you can dig into the snow and cook in it. $400
2) An MSR/Giga stove with a huge tank of white gas and a repair kit. Cannister stoves are better, but the cold can screw them.
3) The mountian hardware ground pad. $300 on sale
4) A mountain hardware galaxy or universe bag. Waterproof down. $350
5) A thick wool blanket. The surplus ones that aren't lint are ok.
6) A properly fitted backpack stuffed with dehydrated food, caffinated tea, and gorp anywhere where my other kit wasn't-- $200
7) Snowshoes and poles--$50 rental

8) One of the bigger gerber axes with the handle stuffed with firemaking goodies in ziplock bags , including several bic lighters with clear fuel resevoirs and a SAK. (is that cheating? Cause avoiding frostbite makes me ok with cheating.) An axe is great for many things. An axe and a mag/flint striker is even better. An axe can kill anything but a gun cannot chop wood very well. I would first use the axe on anyone who tried to make me go on this trip with only ten items. At the very least, I would then have their stuff.

9) Two nalgenes, but I'll count them as one because the smaller will start nestled in the larger one.
10) The teapot with a ti spork, teabags, bouillion cubes and a paperpack book stuffed inside of it. It gets really boring in a snow cave in a blizzard. Drinking whiskey isn't the best idea, your'e alone, and you can only do other solo activites so much. Take a small book.

That's pretty much a minimalist list for me, and look how expensive it is without even going into clothes, glassess, and sunblock. Also take a look at the specialist training required to use a lot of that stuff correctly, and the physical stamina required to move it around. Notice that a good small snow shovel isn't on that list, or a flashlight, or a dozen other things that would help a whole lot.

I highly agree with the other posters about you taking it a bit easier your first time out. Ask you inlaws to camp in their yard. They'll think you're odd but you are much more likely to keep all your digits. And breathing.

Read or re-read Jack London's "To Build A Fire" , and "SnowSense" and many other good books on the subject. Knowledge doesn't weigh anything, but remeber that book smart on the subject won't help when your hands are frozen into claws and you can't stop shaking long enough to untie the frozen laces of your boots to try to rub some blood into toes you haven't felt in a hour.

Let us know,
Jeff

 

[Thomas Linton]

Lots of good advice. Especially wise is the advice to try this all out in a safe location befire heading out to the real wilderness -- to possibly become a statistic.

One quibble. Down insulation works IF you can lay the garment/bag out in the sun to dry out each day. Otherwise, it loses loft (insulation) from body mositure. You may not see the sun for days where you're going. I'd stick to high-class polyester insulation.

(As for military gear, remember: 1) rejected magazine rifles for 40 years because they have a higher rate of fire than single-shots; 2) rejected breach-loading rifles for 40 years because they had lots of obsolete rifles to use up; 3) rejected packs that transfer weight to the hips for over a century because it was a different idea than hanging all the weight on the shoulders; 4) sent the Army to Europe for Winter of 1944-45 in cotton [ditto for sunny Korea].)

 

[Bob W]

Great post Jeff. I'd like to emphasize snowshoes on your gear list. Two or three feet of overnight snow, and you won't be able to hike in boots. Even a 300 yard walk through fresh snow could take hours, depending on what's beneath the snow.

And don't actually eat the snow without melting it first. Not in a survival situation anyway. It'll lower your core temperature.

Keep hydrated. You may not feel as thirsty in the winter, but your body is still losing water digesting food, breathing, and sweating. Dehydration is a leading cause of hypothermia. You might want to check out Dr. Forgey's book on hypothermia - he's an expert in wilderness medicine.

I have friends that live in Ely, Minnesota. They do all sorts of crazy things, like camping in snow caves, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, dogsled racing. I think they're freakin' crazy. Cold sucks, and there's no way around that fact.

If I were you, I'd be conducting internet research to locate guest lodges within driving distance of your in-laws. "I'm going out camping for two days in the snow and sub-zero temperatures," would translate to, "I'm going to a lodge for the weekend to drink beer in the hot tub and sip cocoa by the fireplace."

-Bob

 

[Watchful]

Any chance you could set up camp a short walk from your future in-law's home? I'm with Gallowglass on this, 100%.

That way, if you realize "screw this!", you can quickly make it back to safety. It'll use a little less gear, and you can build experience gradually.

You can learn an awful lot from small doses.

That said, I can reiterate what everyone else is saying: cold is serious business. Many of us here, myself included, have grown up with it, and we still don't take it for granted.

I'd rate cold weather survival with desert survival and open sea survival: it can kill faster than you can learn the hard way.

Besides, I think someone said earlier, spending time with one's future in-laws is itself a survival experience!

 

[Bob W]

I'd rate cold weather survival with desert survival and open sea survival: it can kill faster than you can learn the hard way.

I don't know about sea survival, but the desert is mild compared to serious cold weather situations. Even in the hottest and most remote desert enviroments, an average unprepared person could reasonably live for days. Sub-zero temperatures drop the survival time to hours, perhaps only minutes of being fully functional.

-Bob

 

[TheSurvivalist]

Ok, first - Yes, you are nuts. I've had several experiences in chilly climates, and quite frankly, I would never subject myself to a minimalist survival/camping experience just for the fun of it. Warm is good; freezing to death is bad.

That said, let me provide you with some advice that I have found useful in these situations. Forgive me if these things have already been mentioned.

1) - Don't set out to limit yourself to a certain number of items. Often the items a person leaves behind to "minimalize" their pack are the items they end up needing the most.

2) - Cotton Kills, so go wool as much as possible.

3) - Power bars are not good, as they freeze readily and become hard to eat. If you insist on carrying them, place them in pockets next to your body so your warmth keeps them soft. Try MountainHouse freeze dried meals; they are rather tasty (except for chicken teriyaki) and quick to prepare.

4) - Take along a medical kit. You never know when you may need to treat a minor injury in the field. A custom kit is best, but a store-bought kit is better than nothing.

5) - Bring some sort of insulated pad to sleep on. It is impossible to get restful sleep on cold snow.

6) - Good luck building a shelter. An A-frame is better than a snow-cave, but I wouldn't build a fire near either. Keep your boots inside the shelter with you, otherwise they'll freeze solid. I was out winter camping with a couple of friends, and one of them got the bright idea to build a snow shelter instead of using one of our fine tents. Well, to make a long story short, he didn't properly insulate the shelter (snow shelters are truly an art). When he woke up, his clothes were frozen stiff, his military sleeping bag was frozen, his boots were frozen, and he was stuck to the ground.

7) - Have several pairs of gloves. If you get your gloves wet, the first thing you want to do is put on a dry pair. Sleep in a dry pair at night.

8) - If lighters seem like cheating, go with strike-anywhere matches. Keep them in a dry match safe. Have at least 100 matches in several containers.

9) - Bring at least 50 feet of good, strong rope for emergencies. Paracord is versatile, but rope has many advantages as well.

10) - By all means, feel free to make a fire, but have a small propane stove for making quick meals. A stove also serves as a quick heat source in case you accidentally fall in some water. Ever try building a fire in sub-zero temperatures when all your gear is soaking wet and you can't feel your fingers?

11) - Mark your shelter well! Especially if you are alone. At night, a person can easily become disoriented, and it is sometimes impossible to find where your camp is. If you get lost without shelter in a blizzard, you will certainly die.

Have fun, and try not to freeze to death.

TheSurvivalist

 

[Leanwolf]

HK2001, I strongly suggest you follow most of the above advice and do NOT try to do a cold weather camping trip without first learning more about what awaits you, the proper gear... and HOW TO USE IT!

As that old saying goes, "Best learn to swim before trying out for the Olympics."

FWIW. L.W.

 

[Watchful]

I don't know about sea survival, but the desert is mild compared to serious cold weather situations.

Depends on the desert. Just like cold weather survival depends on where, when, and how cold. Certain areas are easily pleasant--others, not very friendly.

Of course, being from New Mexico, you're undoubtedly more familiar with desert life. Here in Chicago, our sand comes from Indiana.

 

[Bob W]

I grew up near Chicago, about 70 miles west. Nothing but corn. And in the winter, even the corn is gone.

I'm not saying that both aren't serious situations. My idea is based on a simple premise - take an average tourist-type person with no gear and limited outdoor experience. In a sub-zero winter situation, that person would be functional for only several minutes. Cold is deadly, and it kills fast. In the desert, even the hottest desert in North America, that same person could remain functional for at least a day, and stay alive for several more days even without water. That's time to walk out, find shelter, find water, signal for help... In the sub-zero cold there is no time - the threat is immediate.

A healthy person with the proper gear and training could survive either situation indefinitely.

-Bob

 

[sodak]

Lots of good advice here. Be safe. Above all, be safe.

If you want to try this, that's fine, but be safe. I've slept in -14 F weather, and you can die quickly. Have a plan to get out when things get hairy.

Keep it simple.

 

[mewolf1]

First.. the story..
Sometime near christmas, I'll be leaving the toasty warm comfort of Florida, and I'll be going to just a hair south of the US/Canada border. While I'm up there getting to know my future in-laws better.. I want to sneak off for 2-3 days to get in some chilly R&R. I'm expecting snow, snow, and sub-zero high temps.

Now.. the questions..

Am I nuts?

I'm planning on going out without shelter.. probably not even a tarp. I'm thinking of attempting a snow insulated A-frame.

Will this keep me alive? Someone must have this kind of experiance.

Thick wool socks.. Gortex Balaclava, Fleece, more Gortex.. that I understand.
But what about legs? Is the best option to pretend like I'm in elementary school again an wear snowpants?
Boots? I was looking at These boots. Anyone have personal experiance with them?
Gloves? I can't find anything that even remotely looks like I'll retain any dexterity with them on.
For a sleeping bag, I'm leaning towards the Mil issued ECWS system. I've heard good things about it, and the bags can be seperated for use in other climates.

Since everything that goes into the woods with me, also needs to go on the plane, I'm probably going to be down to the famous "what 10 things would you bring" situation.

The list so far is:
Mag/Ferro block
Blade
Sidearm (Wolves, bear... nuff said)
PowerBars
Soup (canned) for a little simplicity.
SAK/Multitool
Nag bottle for water.
Paracord.

Any suggestions, comments, concerns are more then welcome. Thanks for the help, I really want to do this.

First of all, no you are not crazy. But remember , you are not acclimated to the weather and your blood is thinner than the folks up here. Most people think think that it's the frickin tundra up here and you'll die walking into the mall from the parking lot. Use your common sense. As a kid I winter camped ALOT! I still like to sneak out for a little "cold R&R". Just make sure that you have a piece of poly, a good pad(see above), and a bag rated for the temps that you will be dealing with.You don't need a tent , you don't need a gun,yes build a fire(makes everything seem ok), don't bother making a snow shelter except for the experience,or for night two http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371207
My suggestion is to do an over night to get the feel. Bring summer sausage. It's good cold or hot. crack eggs into an unbreakable container, Make breakfast! Cook a steak or sumthin for supper. Have fun, it aint Baffin Ils.fer cripe sake Where are you going ? Toronto is farther south than the Twin Cities.

I don't think that you need to be told that you need to dress warm or bring a lighter, and exrat mitts, that is all common sense. If it's the Twin City area that you're comin to let me know and I'll go with!:thumbup:

 

[HK2001]

Ok.. let me clarify.
Her parents live in an area where theres like 5 houses per mile of road. I'm looking at the woods right behind her parents house, 200-500 yds from "civilization".

I've done cold weather camping before.. I'm not FROM Florida. I've done pleanty of below freezing camping trips.. but below freezing, and sub zero are 2 very different things IMHO. I'm looking forward to challenging myself to ENDURE the situation.. it's not a full blown "me and the clothes on my back" survival trip.
I have experiance in surviving cold weather.. my father and I were snowed in the Adirondaks for 2 weeks.. been there.. done that. But again, that's above zero.

Knowing that the temps will be 5-20 degress below zero, I want to set out for a few days, close to the house, to try and see if my skinny little 6' 140lb butt can even endure a "best case" subzero scenario. completely planned, the warmest gear I can get, food in hand, with a quick easy escape route.

If I can, next year, I'll try a bit less gear, a bit farther, a bit longer...

 

[mewolf1]

Ok.. let me clarify.
Her parents live in an area where theres like 5 houses per mile of road. I'm looking at the woods right behind her parents house, 200-500 yds from "civilization".

I've done cold weather camping before.. I'm not FROM Florida. I've done pleanty of below freezing camping trips.. but below freezing, and sub zero are 2 very different things IMHO. I'm looking forward to challenging myself to ENDURE the situation.. it's not a full blown "me and the clothes on my back" survival trip.
I have experiance in surviving cold weather.. my father and I were snowed in the Adirondaks for 2 weeks.. been there.. done that. But again, that's above zero.

Knowing that the temps will be 5-20 degress below zero, I want to set out for a few days, close to the house, to try and see if my skinny little 6' 140lb butt can even endure a "best case" subzero scenario. completely planned, the warmest gear I can get, food in hand, with a quick easy escape route.

If I can, next year, I'll try a bit less gear, a bit farther, a bit longer...

Have a blast! I wish I was going.

 

[Bob W]

Her parents live in an area where theres like 5 houses per mile of road. I'm looking at the woods right behind her parents house, 200-500 yds from "civilization".

Take a cell phone, so when your hot cocoa needs refilling you can call in for a refill.

Personally, I'd be looking for a place farther away from the in-laws'.
Have a safe trip!

-Bob