Self-Defense Folder: Chinook II or 806D2?

gnlw said:
Which would you choose and why. Thanks in advance for any replies.
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Well; your going to hear people proclaim either knife as best.There is going to be a bias based on the knife someone actually owns.I have owned both numerous BM806 and Chinook I and Chinook II knives,so I feel I can be pretty fair.I sold my BM806's,and I currently own Chinook II's because the knife has a better design for multi-purposes.People might not agree, but it has a good blade shape for utility,defense,and survival.It was designed by in my opinion one of the worlds greatest knife fighting experts.Made by one of the best companies,great Warranty,top of the line materials etc. It has one of the strongest locks and is pretty much built like a tank.The BM806 blade always seemed to be imho a bit on the fragile or weak side,not heavy duty at all.Definatetly not something that I would put under heavy strain,that one might encounter in a self-defense situation.Hold a Chinook II and a BM806 together than decide if the shtf what knife would you like if your A** was on the line.As far as debris getting inside a knife handle and compromising the locks reliability,I highly doubt the Chinooks lock is in any more a risk of failing due to debris than an axis lock.I wouldn't make any choice about a knife without actually handling both the 806 and Chinook II.Asking for opinions is fine,but they are just that,opinions.Take care
 
i would go w/the axis AFCK, a great knife imho. the chinnok 11 is also a great knife, i just like AFCK's period, always have, like the handle shape, blade shape, i like the axis AFCK for the tip up carry (the older axis AFCK's are right or left tip up only, the newer ones are right or left tip up/or down) and if i didnt carry my emerson specwar CQC8 or my crawford perfigo, the #1 production knife i have for edc is my axis AFCK.

the axis is also very strong and easy to open FAST. reallly a nice knife imho, as stated earlier it is my fav production knife.

greg
 
dayuhan13 said:
IIRC the AFCK was designed be Chris Caracci and means Adavanced Combat Folding Knife. A Combat Knife does not necessarily mean it is a true fighting knife, merely one of the attributes. The Chinook is designed by James Keating who needs little introduction and IMO has more of its breeding towards a true fighting knife.

BTW WillP, what is your blade discipine because as a longtime Kalis practitioner, slashing is as important as thrusting in my bladecraft. The argument over thrust and slash has been in debate for some time but I must say that those who've taken the time and studied both techniques will agree that one could not survive without the other and to rely solely on one technique is an excellent way to get yourself killed. IMO, the only debate over slash/thrust is which creates the most traumatic wound.

D13
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Well, I would not consider myself "martial artist", although I study Combat Sambo. Oddly, I have heard of Chris Caracci, but not of James Keating - of course, a knife must be sold on its own merits and not the creator's reputation. I spend a lot of time practicing with a knife, primarily offensive techniques. This leads to emphasis on stabbing, which is more lethal and can be preformed in one subtle motion. A practical against a wary target is to attack an exposed area to distract, then close with a stab - this distracting attack can be a stab or a slash.

In any case, the Chinook is designed with a much large belly than the AFCK - this is useful for utility purposes and strong slashes. I tend to practice slashes with the tip of the knife in the forward grip, so the AFCK is ideal. I worked with someone who knew how to use the ice pick and pakal grips, and I understand how a large belly is useful in this regard, but these techniques are more defensive and IMO less efficient.

I don't mean to get into a debate about "knife fighting"; I am aware that there are people here who are very practiced and highly effective in various styles. I am simply pointing out what works for me.

EDIT: How did I forget to mention the AFCK's handle? Yes, the handle is the most comfortable and secure of any folder I have handled.
 
Axis locks are fast to deploy with a minimum of practice from the pocket for most right from the start. Good materials throughout and a solid performer in the right hands without question.

The Chinook is a lockback and will take a little more effort to be as fast to deploy for most. Both are as fast or as slow as the other in my hands with the "pop" method I use.

Either leaves the pocket and goes in a straight line to the target immediately for me. There is no faster way to deploy than one which will take a folder from the pocket in a straight line to the target. Everything else is going to be longer in time for deployment.

As the Chinook was designed to "snipe" [ as dirk mentioned earlier ] at incoming limbs using the backcutting technique others have mentioned already, the design incorporates a lock strong enough to handle that particular chore if one so desired in a defensive scenario. The strength was built into the design parameters. Though it may fail, the odds of such ocurring are slim at best.
It was well thought out by a nationally known self defense instructor and made to his specifications by one of the great companies producing folders.

At one time, I bought linerlocks and later, axis locks, due to the speed with which they could be accessed [ all due to lock designs ] and deployed using the "pop" method mentioned elsewhere previously.

Linerlocks have failed at the worst of times and I can not bring myself to rely on them for defensive needs. Axis locks are certainly strong enough to withstand what may be required but I am not enamored with the locking mechanisms positioning as I personally feel it could be disengaged inadvertently during a dynamic encounter.

I have in the past year gone to carrying lockback type folders as in the Chinooks, the new Persians, Blade-tech folding kerambits, etc as I feel the strength and ergonomics of the lock during an encounter are at least as important as speed of deployment.

The Chinook 1 took a long time to "tweek" so that it would fly open from the pocket with inertial openings or flicking but was never as fast as it could be in my experience. The Chinook 11 does not suffer that same liability and was redisigned with numerous upgraded features. The Chinook 11 received "pop"ed from the first opening with as much ease as any axis lock or linerlock for me. The speed of deployment no longer being a limiting factor in choice of a defensive carry folder.

The Chinook 1 and 11 have a much stronger blade by design. IMO, the blade of the 806 will be more prone to damage or breakage over the Chinooks but thats not to say they are fragile, just less strong as the Chinooks.

I think either in the right hands will create much tissue damage if used by one who has some ability and experience with tactics/techniques and that both have good ergonomics for blade manipulation drills.

Each person will/should develop, through their own experiences, some way to deploy a folder from the pocket with some practice to gain the speed necessary to respond to an immediate threat presented.

WadeF can open his axis locked knife faster than he can deploy the chinook with the pop. Thats just his body and experience with the two knives. Others may be able to deploy the chinook or another folder faster with an inertial opening. It will certainly depend on each individuals preferences, training, practice time in deploying, and other variables. One is not better than another as we each are individuals with certain restrictions based on hand size, dexterity, experience, longevity in carrying a defensive folder, etc, etc.

As to Wades drawing against a Chinook owner any day, I'll take that challenge thrown out to the forum at the first opportunity we can meet up. We'll videotape the results of several side by side deployments. Then I'll hand him the Chinook and I'll take the 806 and we'll try again. The results should be the same [ though he mentions going against one using the spydie drop deployment, I'll use the Brownie Pop instead ].

It's the users experience and practice, not the blade or locks design that determines which work best for fast openings [ though admittedly certain folders designs are more conducive to others where this subject is concerned ].

We should not get stuck in the mindset that we carry a certain knife because it can be deployed faster than another as I was at one time myself. The real issue where folders are concerned for possible personal defense are the locks strength, ergonomics/handling, materials used in it's construction.

As I have 11+ years of deploying many different folding locks designs behind me using the Pop, the choices are not so much which can be made to deploy more easily [ they all can be deployed fast enough ] but which has the potential to withstand the most abuse by design and materials if the SHTF and I had to absolutely defend my life in a real world encoutner.

In this particular post, that choice would be the Chinook 1 or 11 for me. For no other reason than it is the stronger design all around and does not suffer in deployment speed for me over the other.

WillP: You actually practice offensive moves against another with a knife with hardly any or no defensive training? As the GG's, we need to have defensive tactics to defend long before we need offensive knife skills. BG initiate and are offensive, us GG's are, at least initially, in a defensive posture.

You have never heard of Jim Keating? Do a search, his background and experience helped create and bring to market the Chinooks. There are few who surpass his knowledge and training with blades of all configuraions. Those facts are rarely, if ever, disputed for a reason.

Brownie
 
Hi, guys,

Sorry by the silly question, but what's "wave" and "brownie pop" ? :confused:

Thanks !

Andre Tiba - Brazil
 
almtiba said:
Hi, guys,

Sorry by the silly question, but what's "wave" and "brownie pop" ? :confused:

Thanks !

Andre Tiba - Brazil
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The Wave is a feature sed on Emerson knives that allow the knife to be opened as you are pulling it out of your pocket.

The Brownie pop is an opening method developed by brownie0486.



Of the two I choose the Chinook II. My logic is the same as the posters above me have stated. For those of you that haven't handled a Chinook II, you really owe it to yourselves to give it a try. The sniping backcut to me isn't a difficult manuever. It seems quite natural upon holding the Chinook II.
 
The "wave" is a notch on the spine of certain Emerson folders which catches the rear of the pocket as it is deployed, automatically opening the blade.

The "Brownie Pop" is something I have been playing with as a way to deploy a folder quickly from the pocket. It is not published openly per my request, though over the last few years I have sent it to requesters privately for their own edification.

Shootist, you beat me to the post. Same reply almost to the letter though. :eek:

Brownie
 
Hmm... the language in my post was sort of vague, so I will clarify.

The purpose of my training and practice in knives is offensive in nature; I may someday need to use a knife in combat. I regularly practice evasion and distance techniques against knives, and defensive techniques against knives. However, the only incorporation of a knife itself in my repertoire against knife attacks are stop cuts and thrusts; I consider it unlikely that I will ever need to go one vs one with only knives. Like most people, I learned defense before offense; I am simply more focused on offense at the moment.

And, of course, I have heard of James Keating, and I am not saying his reputation is not justified. I simply heard of Chris Carracci first.

I prefer to use a thumb pop with the AFCK. With your thumb and middle finger on the oval opening hole, snap your thumb and fingers into a forward grip. If you wear the knife without a pocket clip, the knife can be removed from the pocket and thrust immediately; as brownie says, it should go from the pocket to the target in a single thrusting motion.

I found that I can use an inertial pop on both the Chinook II and the AFCK; for me the AFCK is faster. For whatever reason, however, the AFCK is vastly faster when I thumb pop it.

EDIT: brownie, I seem unable to email you or send you a private message. Would you be willing to send me the details of the "brownie pop"?
 
GarageBoy:

That suggestion is an option thats worthy of consideration. As you know, many people are disbelievers in the technique while still others have found their way clear to becoming quicker at deployment.

Two camps abound relative this subject and I really do not want to be causing more issues than have already ocurred in the past about it's effectiveness or lack therof, though I have a database of personal responses by several dozen forumites here who were very appreciative of my sharing it with them over the last year or so on this forum alone.

My thought is a sticky at the top of the general discussion directing them to email me privately may cause to much controversy and "noise" from detractors who have not seen or tried it themselves and have no idea what it is or how it works.

BTW--I want to say thank you to everyone who has recieved the information and pics from me privately at this time for honoring my request to not publish it on the open boards.

It sure would make it easier on me to post it openly in lieu of all the private emails I have responded to.

Respectfully

Brownie
 
TOMBSTONE said:
As far as debris getting inside a knife handle and compromising the locks reliability,I highly doubt the Chinooks lock is in any more a risk of failing due to debris than an axis lock.
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Look at the notch in your Chinook's tang for the locking bar. It's a rectangular cutout that lint can get trapped in. If you have an axis-locked Benchmade, you'll see that lint can only build up so far in the general axis lock area before it just falls out. Clipping your lockbacked knife to your clothing instead of letting it sit freely in a pocket bottom slows the amount of accumulated lint, but it'll still find its way to where it doesn't belong. Since we're all knifeknuts, it's unlikely that your knife would go more than a month without a little cleaning, but that's where lockbacks can have a greater chance of failing compared to axis locks.
 
I've never had that problem with my Chinook II or my other Spyderco knives, but it did happen to me several times with a Beretta Busfield lockback - until I cleaned the lint out of my pockets.

It wasn't a question of lint accumulating in the knife, though. It was a question of large clumps of lint accumulating in my pocket, and one of those clumps getting into the "notch" where the knife locks up.
I also do not use a clip for pocket carry, so the knife would just sit in the heap of lint.

That actually turned me off to lockbacks for a while.

Moral of the story - if you carry a lockback in your pocket, scoop the lint out of your pocket every few months.

Regards,
cds1
 
Any of the folders I have carried over the years have not suffered such malady.

I've got too much drilled/learned OCD behaviour disorder about keeping defensive tools ready for potential battle at any moment to go more than a few hours before I am popping the knife, closing it, and repeating a few times most days. It's checked before I put it back for the final time for a few more hours. This goes on all day most days unless I'm on a protective assignment, surveillance or some such where I'm preoccupied with other matters.

The pockets are checked for lint as they are taken from the drawer clean. Most of it comes from the washing machine. As thats the routine for years, it's a non issue with any folder for me.

My SAK hiker, used to do chores and open boxes gets delinted weekly when I sharpen it on Sunday morning getting ready to sharpen others over breakfast at the club. I only use the small blade on the knife daily, but it's not a knife that will potentially save my bacon on a moment notice either.

Brownie
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm new to the forum, and I'm impressed with the wealth of knowledge here. I'd certainly appreciate more comments on both the Chinook II and the 806D2. Also, thanks Brownie for the e-mail. I will be adding your technique to my training.
 
thombrogan said:
Look at the notch in your Chinook's tang for the locking bar. It's a rectangular cutout that lint can get trapped in. If you have an axis-locked Benchmade, you'll see that lint can only build up so far in the general axis lock area before it just falls out. Clipping your lockbacked knife to your clothing instead of letting it sit freely in a pocket bottom slows the amount of accumulated lint, but it'll still find its way to where it doesn't belong. Since we're all knifeknuts, it's unlikely that your knife would go more than a month without a little cleaning, but that's where lockbacks can have a greater chance of failing compared to axis locks.
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Actually,I don't normally carry my knives sitting in the bottom of my pocket.
I still do though wash & dry my pant pockets inside out to keep clean from dust,dirt,hair,skin debris.I carry mostly in a sheath,but would consider bottom pocket carry as a last choice.I'm thinking of getting a concealex sheath instead of carrying in my cocoon sheath velcro/nylon >Faster draw with less noise with concealex or kydex.
 
I'd opt for the C2.

It fits my hand and is more comfortable across the spectrum of grips.
 
I'd also suggest you keep Mick Strider's quote in mind... Goes something like this:

"The best knife is the one in your hand, when you need it."
 
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