self insuring - protecting your shop

H

HSC ///

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a recent thread prompted me to evaluate my risk and seek out insurance options and other means to reduce my risk of loss in my shop (garage).

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1387761-Liability-Insurance?highlight=shop+liability

I use my garage and with a gas forge and grinding there are risks. Just the other day I was forging a blade and grabbed the wrong tongs and the blade went flying when I hammered a corner and the hot blade landed on an electrical cord which started to smoke....

We use a large well known insurance company for our house and we are loyal to them for many years. When my dad had his first business we had a fire and they covered everything and so I got to see how insurance works and thus we have stayed with the same company. I got a quote from this company (thru my long term agent) for my "knife business" and two different underwriters both freaked out. They both wanted to cancel me and nothing to do with this "risk"

I got a quote a separate quote from Travelers and Seneca so I'm working thru all this and will eventually sort it out

I'm a guy who prefers to self-insure myself as much as possible and when I can.
I have several fire extinguishers in the garage and know how to use them from fire ext training at a previous job.

I got a quote for automated fire sprinklers in my garage, it's about $3,500.

so question - how do you protect yourself, what methods do you use in your own shop?
 
I contacted my insurance carrier and explained my "hobby" as making kitchen cutlery which sounded better. The underwriters wanted to know how much my equipment was worth and hinted that $5000 was the maximum they would accept without an additional premium so I said about $5000. They made a note of it and said I was covered without an additional premium but I had to promise no welding, forges, or kilns which was ok with me because I make knives by stock reduction. If I wanted those other things then I would need a commercial policy and might not get it in a residential neighborhood. Of course my real concern was having a fire and being denied coverage because I did not notify them that I was making and selling knives. With power cords on the floor I would think twice about a sprinkler system lest you cause an electrocution hazard in your shop. Larry
 
Unless the building is un-occupied a lot of the time, a sprinkler system isn't really needed. In fact, it may be unwanted. The heat of forging alone may make enough ceiling heat to set it off.

A good smoke detector and maybe a heat detector connected to a monitored security system is far better. A good volume sounder that will wake all occupants is obviously wise, too. Add a security camera and the area can be checked by you or the security company anytime to make sure all is well. All these things are free or very low cost with most home security systems, today.

At least two 10# to 20# ABC fire extinguishers should be at opposite ends of the shop. A 20 pound extinguisher costs less than twice what a 5 pound unit costs. A 20 pound unit usually costs only $10-15 more than a 10#. IIRC, the last 20# I bought was around $85.

One thing many shops do not have is a hose in or near it. There should be a garden hose with a good nozzle readily available at all times when working in the shop. When working with hot steel, it should be within a few feet.
 
12345678910 said:
The biggest extinguisher is no good if you or the family can't lift it off the wall.
Click to expand...

thanks for the advice, so do you have a suggestion to contribute to this post or did you just want to comment? :)

this was an an excellent addition by Stacy - "garden hose with a good nozzle readily available at all times when working in the shop"
 
HSC /// said:
a recent thread prompted me to evaluate my risk and seek out insurance options and other means to reduce my risk of loss in my shop (garage).


We use a large well known insurance company for our house and we are loyal to them for many years. When my dad had his first business we had a fire and they covered everything and so I got to see how insurance works and thus we have stayed with the same company. I got a quote from this company (thru my long term agent) for my "knife business" and two different underwriters both freaked out. They both wanted to cancel me and nothing to do with this "risk"

I'm a guy who prefers to self-insure myself as much as possible and when I can.
I have several fire extinguishers in the garage and know how to use them from fire ext training at a previous job.

I got a quote for automated fire sprinklers in my garage, it's about $3,500.

so question - how do you protect yourself, what methods do you use in your own shop?
Click to expand...

HSC /// said:
thanks for the advice, so do you have a suggestion to contribute to this post or did you just want to comment? :)
Click to expand...

I thought my point was clear.
I'm tall and strong - at least I was some years ago. I had big extingushers mounted high on the wall.
I mounted stuff to suit myself, but the others in the household - who may be the ones to use it - couldn't.
There is benefit to having some smaller units and keeping those others in mind when you mount them.

Dry powder extinguishers work great for putting out fire.
But if you use them, they make a hell of a mess.
It's handy to have a CO2 handy as your first choice when it's small and controllable.

If you mention welder, cutting torch, forge and so on to insurance people, they freak out.
I wouldn't be loyal to any of them, they sure will not be to you.


Lieblad said:
Fwiw


At my shop, after any hotwork. 1/2 hr firewatch is mandantory before locking up for the day.
Its not wasted time btw. Cleanup, etc. All the while keeping an eye & nose for problems.
Click to expand...

I had a problem with smouldering oily rag.
A good respirator and good fit meant I didn't smell it while I was working.
If you ever find yourself asking - What's that smell ? - go chase it and FIND it.

That 1/2 hour tidy time saved me from a fire.

In my area, an unheated outbuilding - sprinklers will freeze and then leak.
Big problems.


industrial hygiene - is a good thing.
 
Last edited:
12345678910 said:
That 1/2 hour tidy time saved me from a fire.



industrial hygiene - is a good thing.
Click to expand...
Agreed. No matter what I'm doing in my shop/garage I always spend time cleaning up. And making sure nothing is hot or smoking or plugged in



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I would not chance self insure for a shop. No matter what steps you take to prevent fire, it can still happen. I let my homeowner's insurance accept the risk.
 
Lieblad said:
The most common remedy for this is a Dry Pipe System.
In the most simple explanation, Its discharge piping is filled with compressed air. As an overheated sprinkler head opens, the air is released what opens the Dry Pipe Valve to introduce water into the pipe.
A Dry System needs slightly more complexity over a wetsystem but works well for most all areas subject to freezing.
Another option is AntiFreeze System. But typically only used as an Wet System extension into a limited size area whats subject to freezing. Example an attic or awning connected to an otherwise heated building.

Fire protection at my homeshop consists firstly of housekeeping. A couple 5 pound ABCs, 30 gallon slacktubs & hose.
Automatic detection via 1960 vintage ADT Aero tubing (still the best thing ever for dirty enviroments) connected to monitoring via the security transmitter.
Click to expand...

I suppose that needs city water pressure too?

What happens when it loses water pressure ?
 
John Andrews said:
I would not chance self insure for a shop. No matter what steps you take to prevent fire, it can still happen. I let my homeowner's insurance accept the risk.
Click to expand...

John, You are absolutely right. I was an insurance adjuster for the General Adjustment Bureau and then for Underwriters Adjusting Company for about 6 years in the early 1970s and I paid thousands of claims. Making and selling anything from your home can give your insurance company grounds for denying a claim whether it was caused in your garage or outbuilding or not if you do not inform them of your activities. If they can show that you engaged in commerce from your home it could mean denial of your claim. The odds are slim that your home will be destroyed in a fire but are most people willing to chance losing their home and having to bear the loss themselves? Make sure that you are covered. Sleep well at night. Just my opinion. Larry
 
12345678910 said:
If you mention welder, cutting torch, forge and so on to insurance people, they freak out.
I wouldn't be loyal to any of them, they sure will not be to you.
Click to expand...

yes my agent said both underwriters freaked out.
sadly your 2nd statement seems to be proving true...Our family has been loyal to the agent almost 25 years.
But he's just the agent....


LARRYZ10 said:
John, You are absolutely right. I was an insurance adjuster for the General Adjustment Bureau and then for Underwriters Adjusting Company for about 6 years in the early 1970s and I paid thousands of claims. Making and selling anything from your home can give your insurance company grounds for denying a claim whether it was caused in your garage or outbuilding or not if you do not inform them of your activities. If they can show that you engaged in commerce from your home it could mean denial of your claim. The odds are slim that your home will be destroyed in a fire but are most people willing to chance losing their home and having to bear the loss themselves? Make sure that you are covered. Sleep well at night. Just my opinion. Larry
Click to expand...

Yeah it looks like I might have to spring for the additional liability coverage....The agent made it clear that denial of claim as you outlined was very likely...
I guess I just didn't want to accept the additional cost required, but maybe I will accept it over time
 
Hey H, is there a thread already about how to reduce your risks in practice? That sounds like a good sticky if it doesn't exist already.
The two things I do that I think mitigate a lot of risk are grinding wet and checking the shop frequently for an hour or two after grinding.
Even if I am not wet grinding, I wet the bench all along the belt path, and keep it wet. When I move and set up a new shop I am thinking about an actual pan under the length of the belt, better vacuum removal of flying media, and metal backstop, which I sort of have now.
Another thing I intend to do in the new shop design is having my grinders backs toward the garage door with several feet of clearance, and also ample clearance on all sides, free of everything that might accumulate tinder. Basically the grinder(s) will be an island that I can easily walk around and clean around, free of accumulated belts and what-not.
It would be interesting to have a list: How to make your shop fire resistant.

Good post sir.
 
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