Sell me on tantos

[Practicoolio]

Not the actual japanese weapon... As the grandson of a 5th degree kendoka it annoys me that Cold Steel et al use the term for a completely different concept.

Supposedly the american tanto has the advantage of a slicer that is also an extremely sturdy stabber.
I haven't yet put an american tanto through it's paces because I'm sold on the slicing ability of traditional curved shapes. I'm confident of what curves bring to the table.
I don't see the value of the subpoint: I imagine I'm familiar with what it can offer from using utility cutters with disposable blades. Am I missing something or does a subpoint do something they don't, other than being way thicker at the spine?
I also don't understand the need for more stabby sturdiness. Dagger points have been made to puncture ww2 steel helmets, clip points have been made to cut one's way through aluminum aircraft bodies. I myself have beaten the heck out of cheap drop points and spear points, including batoning and stabbing a 70s pickup door into pieces in a junkyard to get to a part inside. I've broken the tips off some knives, they were still usable and I had a lot more confidence in them once I reground them by hand into the shape they broke into. Therefore: cheap steel in a traditional shape seems stabby enough, or I can make the point stabby enough. My concern is the lock and the grip, which I have never found more suitable for stabbing than the tip of any folder I've owned.

I am not bashing tantos, except to say that american tantos are NOT traditional tantos, and the two quite different concepts deserve separate identities.

I am saying I feel confident of what I can do with traditionally curved blade shapes, and I'm asking what angular tantos can do better.
The one clear advantage I can see is in a blade long enough for a sword like slash or chop. If you're going to swing and just brush the tip of the blade against the work surface, I see a possible advantage of that angle and I see where a subpoint expands upon the usefulness of your tool. But. Realistically... Other than self defense, I cannot imagine needing *my edc* this way. I won't need my edc because I'll have a much larger heavier specialized tool. Which wouldn't have the sharply angled edge of an american tanto, because no designer that I know of deems that hard angle useful in other tools.
So for self defense? I have to ask, if the angled subpoint is superior, why didn't anyone realize that in the millenia when most warriors relied primarily on edged weapons?
If I'm going to carry a knife *for knife fighting* why is the tanto superior *for knife fighting* compared to all the other options that pop up if I google 'best self defense knife'?

Is it possibly that this is the best knife WTSHTF, if I had no other tool?
I'm ok considering that.... But my own conclusion is: EDC other tools, plus, have bugout bags nearby with my TEOTWAWKI gear. Not carry my TEOTWAWKI gear in my pocket at all times.

So that's my current thought.
Please, if you understand and like tantos, explain where I am mistaken or underinformed.

 

[Comeuppance]

I think you’re approaching this from the wrong angle - assuming that one blade shape is objectively wholly better than another. They’re all situational.

The american tanto had two distinct features - a secondary tip that is good for snap / draw cuts, and a secondary flat edge that is useful for precise cuts or scraping. The two distinct grinds also makes it easy to have two different bevels.

The tip thickness is good for puncturing, a feature that shines when the steel employed is robust (3V, for example) and the lack of belly means that the puncturing will potentially damage less of the whole blade.

 

[ScooterG]

38:00 minute mark

 

[eveled]

My opinion? Just say no to tantos. I’d rather have a straight chisel tip then a tanto.

 

[Practicoolio]

I think you’re approaching this from the wrong angle - assuming that one blade shape is objectively wholly better than another. They’re all situational.

Well, clearly I worded it poorly. But we are thinking along the same lines.
When I said sell me on tantos, I might have better worded it:
Explain to me how your edc is best solved by:
One edge good for snap/draw cuts or I believe we might also say a kiridashi edge
A second straight edge good for scraping
An overall shape that allows these two to be different (edit: I meant, different grinds)
And a shape that also might protect the belly of the knife during stabs. Which I believe if that's your priority I have a better solution, if you are interested.

So. It's all situational.
Some people choose to EDC a tanto. For what situation?
I know what they traded away when they opted out of traditional curves. What's the situation that made it an advantageous bargain?

 

[Practicoolio]

I’d rather have a straight chisel tip then a tanto.

That's a razel, right?
They're kind of hot right now, my same question applies: why? For what need?

What is your need that you would rather solve it with a razel instead of curves?
I know a lot of things I've done well with various curved edges.
I can think of a few situations I can do better with a razel or ameritanto; they come up rarely but I frequently sort out tasks better solved with curves.

 

[Reitwagen]

So for self defense? I have to ask, if the angled subpoint is superior, why didn't anyone realize that in the millenia when most warriors relied primarily on edged weapons?

Precisely. Thrusting weapons throughout history have been made with acute points. The American tanto seems to be an angular interpretation of a Japanese sword point which was primarily a cutting weapon. Now in the 21st century, when contact-distance weapons are largely obsolete in warfare, we develop the innovation of stabbing with a blunt-tipped knife. I would rather have a Morakniv for self defense than a knife shaped like a skew chisel.

 

[Practicoolio]

38:00 minute mark

Great video, makes me want to get in a mosh pit with that dude and later, ask what he'd take for that knife he broke the tip off of.
Doesn't quite make me want a tanto.
I'd just grind the tip in the shape it broke, still not american tanto because I'd curve it. And then I'd feel confident of what it could survive in the future. Which I've done to probably 12-15 knives, mostly with a much smaller piece of damage.

 

[ScooterG]

Great video, makes me want to get in a mosh pit with that dude and later, ask what he'd take for that knife he broke the tip off of.
Doesn't quite make me want a tanto.
I'd just gring the tip in the shape it broke, still not american tanto bc I'd curve it. And then I'd feel confident of what it could survive in the future. Which I've done to probably 12-15 knives, mostly a much smallet piece of damage.

Worth a shot!

 

[FullMetalJackass]

My opinion? Just say no to tantos. I’d rather have a straight chisel tip then a tanto.

And you can get the best of both world!

 

[Practicoolio]

the innovation of stabbing with a blunt-tipped knife

Just occurred to me:
The Zulu ixlwa was essentially meant for a real life scenario much like a Cold Steel promo vid, executed in relatively poor steel as I understand it. Sprint at your enemy, sweep his shield aside, stab deep into his torso, pry and twist with all your weight and momentum, yank the blade out hard and look for the next enemy.
And the blade shapes I've seen were fairly acute tips, spear, leaf, needle or kris shaped double edged blades.
The best I can think of to compare to an ameritanto would be an entrenching tool used to stab in trench warfare. I'll have to research if I can find one with a tip like a tanto and a comparison to stabbing with a more traditional shape.

 

[Comeuppance]

I think it really boils down to preference. Utility aside, it’s a very specific aesthetic that some people favor.

I too, like the OP, find that bellied blades (my personal preference being the Spyderco leaf-shape, with a bellied sheepsfoot being a very close second) accomplish basically any cutting task I am faced with.

That said, I and reasonably certain that a tanto would accomplish those tasks just as readily. I don’t think arguing from strict practicality is the way to go unless you find yourself in situations where a tanto would be more ideal. You could have the same argument for clip points, sheepsfoot, wharncliffe, drop points, spear points, daggers, etc - their difference in general cutting efficacy is minimal if used appropriately, save for a few select purposes specific to each.

I have successfully EDC’d all of those blade profiles, including tantos, and found them all perfectly suitable. The justification for their existence doesn’t need to be argued for, since varied preferences and market forces have already done all the justifying necessary.

 

[Ajack60]

Either you like them or you don't. It's that simple. If you have to be convinced to like a tanto, then you probably don't want one.
I happen to be in the like them camp, working in construction, a tanto does serve a purpose.

 

[rover]

You could start a knife company and sell a bunch of them. Outside of that, I don't see the purpose. Traditional Tantos all the way.

 

[SW-EDC]

I only own a couple but by far my favorite.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Supposedly the american tanto has the advantage of a slicer that is also an extremely sturdy stabber.
I haven't yet put an american tanto through it's paces because I'm sold on the slicing ability of traditional curved shapes. I'm confident of what curves bring to the table.

You said it for yourself - you are confident in the curved shape, but you never put the "american" tanto trough it paces. Maybe you should do it.
Also, looks to me that there are few misunderstandings you are working with.
First, there is no "american" tanto. Google Kamasu-Kissaki for more info, I believe there are earlier, larger swords with completely straight, angled, "american" style kissaki, can't think right now about the name but I'm sure some can chime in.
So the "american" tanto is not an American invention as a profile, in any case.
Another fact - the tanto point, most people call "american" tanto is not suited well for stabbing because of the thick profile of the point and large angle of the tip. A "american" tanto profile of the tip, with sharper angle as we find on Benchmade Striker is designed for stabbing, this angle will be sturdy stabber but not the regular "Cold Steel" profile of an "american" tanto.
Further - angled point between the two bevels by the tip of the "american" tanto will cut much better that classic Japanese tanto kissaki for the simple reason that you are applying same force to a smaller surface, it works just as serration, only have one "tooth". There was a article in, I believe Recoil magazine about this particular phenomenon - they were comparing wharncliffe blades and straight bevels ( as on the "american" tanto) to a belly of a knife and explained why straight/tanto edge cuts better soft tissue.
What is the american invention when we are talking about the "american" tanto ? IMO - it is the hollow grind, which makes it extremely good slicer, along with the chisel grind. This also makes this type of tanto a great utility knife, simply because you can maintain a bevel with hollow grind behind longer than full flat or other grind. I am extensively using folding tanto knives in my maintenance work and will not replace those for any other knife, except the Gail Bradley 1, but again - GB1 also have hollow grind. Another feature, mentioned earlier by Comeuppanche is the two bevels - my spin - people who don't use tantos very often as a utility blades, cannot realize that if you are using primarely one of those bevels, the other one is often preserved in very sharp condition, so you can use it when need a sharp, unused bevel... Again - utilitarian feature.
Looking at the "american" tanto blade, one can see two very strongly presented components of the blade - a razor like blade with angled tip for scraping, punching trough or fine carving.
Also, most "american tantos have "scandinavian" type handle, thick and round in the middle and either shrinking towards the guard and the pommel, or just going thin towards the pomel. This is a "utility" type of handle, giving you great lateral control of the blade for carving and similar tasks and some how suitable for stabbing.
Japanese tanto handles on the other hand are usually thinner in the center and going thicker towards the pommel and guard, which gives you great security when stabbing and pulling the knife out of the material
IMO - people just go with the popular misunderstanding that "american" tantos are designed for stabbing, no, my general opinion is that they are designed as a good utility knives, that can be used as a weapons if you have to.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

A few benefits could be argued for the "tanto" in question here.

First, you have two points. So for doing work with a point, you theoretically have a back-up or could share work between the two for longer use before maintenance becomes necessary. (The same could be said for the edges but I'm not sure I care.) This argument feels more applicable to field scenarios where you might not be able to do normal maintenance stuff.

Second, the smaller edge near the end may offer some unique advantages in scraping tasks. Nick Shabazz has discussed this. I get it but I'm not going to use my EDC knife for scraping tasks unless I really have to.

Third, the overall shape may have advantages as a stabbing tool in combat scenarios. Personally, I don't like the idea of using any folding knife as a defensive tool. I might view this argument more favorably in the context of defense-specific fixed blades. I'm also not sure that other shapes won't perform well enough to be like the difference between 9mm and .40 S&W here. (Who wants to open that can of worms? )

For the record, I've owned and carried "tanto" folders but not in a very long time. Now, let's talk about a name I hate even more: "reverse tanto"!

 

[Lapedog]

Not the actual japanese weapon... As the grandson of a 5th degree kendoka it annoys me that Cold Steel et al use the term for a completely different concept.

Supposedly the american tanto has the advantage of a slicer that is also an extremely sturdy stabber.
I haven't yet put an american tanto through it's paces because I'm sold on the slicing ability of traditional curved shapes. I'm confident of what curves bring to the table.
I don't see the value of the subpoint: I imagine I'm familiar with what it can offer from using utility cutters with disposable blades. Am I missing something or does a subpoint do something they don't, other than being way thicker at the spine?
I also don't understand the need for more stabby sturdiness. Dagger points have been made to puncture ww2 steel helmets, clip points have been made to cut one's way through aluminum aircraft bodies. I myself have beaten the heck out of cheap drop points and spear points, including batoning and stabbing a 70s pickup door into pieces in a junkyard to get to a part inside. I've broken the tips off some knives, they were still usable and I had a lot more confidence in them once I reground them by hand into the shape they broke into. Therefore: cheap steel in a traditional shape seems stabby enough, or I can make the point stabby enough. My concern is the lock and the grip, which I have never found more suitable for stabbing than the tip of any folder I've owned.

I am not bashing tantos, except to say that american tantos are NOT traditional tantos, and the two quite different concepts deserve separate identities.

I am saying I feel confident of what I can do with traditionally curved blade shapes, and I'm asking what angular tantos can do better.
The one clear advantage I can see is in a blade long enough for a sword like slash or chop. If you're going to swing and just brush the tip of the blade against the work surface, I see a possible advantage of that angle and I see where a subpoint expands upon the usefulness of your tool. But. Realistically... Other than self defense, I cannot imagine needing *my edc* this way. I won't need my edc because I'll have a much larger heavier specialized tool. Which wouldn't have the sharply angled edge of an american tanto, because no designer that I know of deems that hard angle useful in other tools.
So for self defense? I have to ask, if the angled subpoint is superior, why didn't anyone realize that in the millenia when most warriors relied primarily on edged weapons?
If I'm going to carry a knife *for knife fighting* why is the tanto superior *for knife fighting* compared to all the other options that pop up if I google 'best self defense knife'?

Is it possibly that this is the best knife WTSHTF, if I had no other tool?
I'm ok considering that.... But my own conclusion is: EDC other tools, plus, have bugout bags nearby with my TEOTWAWKI gear. Not carry my TEOTWAWKI gear in my pocket at all times.

So that's my current thought.
Please, if you understand and like tantos, explain where I am mistaken or underinformed.

Please read this previous thread which addresses alot of the points you brought up.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/tantos-a-serious-discussion.1533219/

Also there are actually Japanese tantos and especially katanas with an “american style tanto” tip. I posted pics of some in that thread I linked above.

 

[Mecha]

Not the actual japanese weapon... As the grandson of a 5th degree kendoka it annoys me that Cold Steel et al use the term for a completely different concept.

Supposedly the american tanto has the advantage of a slicer that is also an extremely sturdy stabber.
I haven't yet put an american tanto through it's paces because I'm sold on the slicing ability of traditional curved shapes. I'm confident of what curves bring to the table.
I don't see the value of the subpoint: I imagine I'm familiar with what it can offer from using utility cutters with disposable blades. Am I missing something or does a subpoint do something they don't, other than being way thicker at the spine?
I also don't understand the need for more stabby sturdiness. Dagger points have been made to puncture ww2 steel helmets, clip points have been made to cut one's way through aluminum aircraft bodies. I myself have beaten the heck out of cheap drop points and spear points, including batoning and stabbing a 70s pickup door into pieces in a junkyard to get to a part inside. I've broken the tips off some knives, they were still usable and I had a lot more confidence in them once I reground them by hand into the shape they broke into. Therefore: cheap steel in a traditional shape seems stabby enough, or I can make the point stabby enough. My concern is the lock and the grip, which I have never found more suitable for stabbing than the tip of any folder I've owned.

I am not bashing tantos, except to say that american tantos are NOT traditional tantos, and the two quite different concepts deserve separate identities.

I am saying I feel confident of what I can do with traditionally curved blade shapes, and I'm asking what angular tantos can do better.
The one clear advantage I can see is in a blade long enough for a sword like slash or chop. If you're going to swing and just brush the tip of the blade against the work surface, I see a possible advantage of that angle and I see where a subpoint expands upon the usefulness of your tool. But. Realistically... Other than self defense, I cannot imagine needing *my edc* this way. I won't need my edc because I'll have a much larger heavier specialized tool. Which wouldn't have the sharply angled edge of an american tanto, because no designer that I know of deems that hard angle useful in other tools.
So for self defense? I have to ask, if the angled subpoint is superior, why didn't anyone realize that in the millenia when most warriors relied primarily on edged weapons?
If I'm going to carry a knife *for knife fighting* why is the tanto superior *for knife fighting* compared to all the other options that pop up if I google 'best self defense knife'?

Is it possibly that this is the best knife WTSHTF, if I had no other tool?
I'm ok considering that.... But my own conclusion is: EDC other tools, plus, have bugout bags nearby with my TEOTWAWKI gear. Not carry my TEOTWAWKI gear in my pocket at all times.

So that's my current thought.
Please, if you understand and like tantos, explain where I am mistaken or underinformed.

I got a lol out of striking hard against a "work surface" with a tanto-tipped sword.

Reasons for tanto tip include but aren't limited to:

1. Looks badass (+9 ninja skills)
2. Scraping gaskets (mechanic knife)
3. Stabbing fuel drums WTSHTF / TEOTWAWKI

 

[Silent H]

Another fact - the tanto point, most people call "american" tanto is not suited well for stabbing because of the thick profile of the point and large angle of the tip. A "american" tanto profile of the tip, with sharper angle as we find on Benchmade Striker is designed for stabbing, this angle will be sturdy stabber but not the regular "Cold Steel" profile of an "american" tanto.

You are 100% correct about this, the thick profile and large angle of the tip won't penetrate better than a dagger, say a Fairbairn-Sykes for a (slightly) modern example. I think the misconception that American tantos are good at stabbing come from videos of them being stabbed through car hoods and other things like that (I think a certain company's marketing really comes to mind here). Stabbing through sheet metal with a thin dagger is more likely to break the dagger than if you use a blade with a lot of thickness out towards the tip, like an American tanto. The main advantages of the American tanto are its tip strength and prying ability, and perhaps it is easier to manufacture in large quantities than traditional tantos (that's just a guess though).

I do like having the low secondary tip for edc chores such as opening boxes and the long straight blade is great at other tasks too. I prefer to carry a tanto blade over a wharncliffe blade, because the long edge and the secondary point can do everything a wharny can do, and the secondary tip edge can approximate a "belly" for other tasks better than a wharny can.

Then again, I just think Tantos look cool.