Attention Selling and Sales Talk rules in Shop Talk - Rules Explained

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have been asked to explain the forum rules on sales and selling. I'll try and clear it up if I can. This is a thread about the forum rules. If you don't like the forum rules, post it Whine and Cheese or send Spark a PM. I don't make the rules and I don't own the forum. All I am doing here is trying to help those who want to stay within the rules understand how to keep on the good side of the moderators.

Selling of knives and other things is only allowed in The Exchange. Offering to buy something is the same type of conduct. If you want to sell or buy something from a specific individual, do it by email, PM, or message ... NOT in a forum thread.

Discussing sales, knives for sale, customers, etc. Is considered advertising that you sell knives. This is a privilege of a Knifemaker or Dealer level membership.
If you do not have that level of membership, you can't do sales talk. A casual mention of a customer isn't a problem. A direct comment about a knife and the customer is sales talk.
Not allowed -
"I sold this knife to a customer and he ....." This is direct sales talk.

Posting a photo of a knife and talking about selling it is advertising.

Asking what others think a knife should sell for.

Allowed -
"How do you folks deal with difficult customers..." No problem, the post is about selling in general, not a specific sale.

Discussing how you got started or how to build a customer base, or how to go into full time knifemaking is fine. This is a general topic, not sales talk.

If a person who sells knives wants to post a WIP or give advice on a specific procedure, that is fine. It is education, not selling.

Posting photos of their latest knives by someone who sells knives but not actually talking about selling them is tricky. If the photo is in the "What's going on in your shop" thread, and you post a new knife or batch, that is fine. A separate thread with photos of new knives that will be sold is stepping over the line. Use common sense and this is never an issue.

What makes one person's post right and someone else's wrong? - If you hold yourself out as a full time knifemaker, If you have a sales website, If you sell most every knife you make, If you have your website or other sales related contact info in your signature line .... you are a knife seller.
If you are a hobby maker and show a knife you made that your boss bought from you, that is OK as long as every post isn't about a knife you sold.

How to avoid any issues - GET A KNIFEMAKER MEMBERSHIP. If you reach the point where you make and sell knives, you should be proud that you have become a knifemaker. A knifemaker level gives you PM privilege, posting privilege, and direct posting of photos, along with other perks.


Personal rant - I really can't understand why a seller who makes serious money off his knives won't pay for a membership on the forum that helped get him well known (and where he still sells knives in The Exchange), but some of them don't have a paid membership. They are regularly advised to get a membership or stop posting photos of knives for sale (except in the allowed places).

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Sounds pretty much the it has always supposed to have been . . . and for us tool makers, is there a new directive how we should handle the "Which forge/anvil/grinder should I get?" questions? We are allowed to respond, correct?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Answering questions about materials, tools, suppliers, etc. is what Shop Talk all about is. As long as people don't talk about selling them or take orders in Shop Talk, it is fine.

If Chuck at Alpha Knife Supply tells people he has Magnacut in stock, that is fine. If you at Atlas Knife Company tell people that you have great anvils for sale on your website, that is OK.
It is best to leave prices out of the posts in most cases. It would be OK to say, "Atlas has a 126# anvil at less than half the price of a Nimba of the same weight.

Recommending grinders and other tools that you don't sell yourself is pretty much always OK. In that case you can give prices, since you won't be the seller. Example, " Reeder has a great basic grinder kit for $795".

 

[AVigil]

Personal rant - I really can't understand why a seller who makes serious money off his knives won't pay for a membership on the forum that helped get him well known (and where he still sells knives in The Exchange), but some of them don't have a paid membership

You pay $75 for a service that BF charges, it did not "help" you. It sold you a service.

When that service no longer is worth $75 why should they pay for it?

Personally 95% of my knives are sold from Instagram.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

My response isn't meant to be an argument, it is an explanation of how BF can help a seller:

Instagram may be where your knives get sold now, but every one of your 6784 Bladeforums posts will come up when someone googles you name.

Many of the bigger sellers started here on Bladeforums. It was that exposure and help with questions and other things that helped them get where they are now.
Think back 22 years to when you first got started. Did BF help you then? Didn't you sell a lot of knives in The Exchange for many years? I know I take a look at every one of the great looking knives you post a photo of here. I am sure your potential buyers do, too.

I do agree that there are many people who contribute a lot to why people check out Bladeforums. I and many others gain a lot from your knowledge and appreciate your contributions and sharing of ideas.

 

[AVigil]

My response isn't meant to be an argument, it is an explanation of how BF can help a seller:

Instagram may be where your knives get sold now, but every one of your 6784 Bladeforums posts will come up when someone googles you name.

Many of the bigger sellers started here on Bladeforums. It was that exposure and help with questions and other things that helped them get where they are now.
Think back 22 years to when you first got started. Did BF help you then? Didn't you sell a lot of knives in The Exchange for many years? I know I take a look at every one of the great looking knives you post a photo of here. I am sure your potential buyers do, too.

I do agree that there are many people who contribute a lot to why people check out Bladeforums. I and many others gain a lot from your knowledge and appreciate your contributions and sharing of ideas.

I paid for a service. I helped myself.

If anything all the FREE content we give helps BF.
If BF dissapeared we would still sell knives.
If content creators stop posting on BF, then there would be no BF.

Yes people can see my knives here but it is a far less then see it on Instagram.

I do pay for my membership here, but to rant and try to shame knifemakers for not buying a membership is missing the big picture...it just is not worth it to many knifemakers anymore and if BF wants their money then they need to make it worthwhile.

 

[Storm W]

Just something that I have noticed and the reason why I probably won't buy a knife makers membership anytime soon again. When I look at welding forums people are often asking questions about their business and I think there is plenty of supplier advertising to make a business model. There are a lot of hobby makers here and shop talk has developed a culture of most things about sales not being ok. Even when new makers get an upgraded membership it generally seems like people don't feel it's ok because it seems to be a sore point. It looks to me like so few people buy the membership that I have heard of some who are not even full time makers being pushed to buy membership and even showing pictures of work can be subjective as to being sales based. Many new makers once they find that even using the market doesn't give them value. Also it seems as though some who offer services can freely talk without much problem. These are observations and not complaints.

I assume a forum like this needs revenue. A place like this where newer people or people branching into a new market are willing to pay if they can get the information they need. It might be a good idea to make it clear that selling or business questions are welcome and encouraged if someone has a membership. There must be some sort of way to allow even non paying members to give detailed advice in answer to a question. I also feel like talking about pricing might be something that more experienced makers might want to get more involved with. Since forged in fire started there have been a lot of new makers starting. I fall into that group just because that's the timeline where I finally saved the money to tell the wife I was doing something I have wanted to do since I was a kid. I gather that new makers are not doing any favors to the lower end of the market especially if they are good and underprice their work. It could be in everyone's interest to increase the overall understanding of how pricing and quality work and make paid memberships have more value. I would gladly pay if I thought those were questions that would be easy to ask. There should be two types of knives really. Ones that are tools and ones that are art with some blending but I have never seen any conversation were anyone felt comfortable breaking any of that sort of thing down. I hope that I never have to make a living knife making but I think that most people are going to need to sell a few for the cash flow to grow. This is the big website that most people will come to and some more open talk about that sort of thing could probably help out the market.

Its just a thought. I don't know all the back history or how hard it is to do.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

I stopped buying the supplier membership because i found the sort of forum folk a little too intense if you will. Paying ~350 a year to get yelled at and accused of ruining the forum when i mention i sell stuff lost its luster very quickly. I have a website for sales and an instagram page for advertising where i can post what i want and not have to deal with dozens of public comments accusing me of ruining the forum and turning it into my personal advertisement and whatever other nonsense old knifemakers with internet and too much time on their hands care to accuse me of. Its all well and good to say advertising is allowed, but the amount of rules, regulation, and public outcry made it to much of a pain to deal with for free, let alone for 350 a year.

I am happy to lend my advice and answer questions about wood/ wood processing/ stabilizing whenever i can, unlike Adam i do feel a debt to the forums. I got started making crumby knives here as a 14 year old, and i got started selling wood here in highschool and college, which has become my fulltime job, so i do feel a sort of nostalgia and debt to this platform.

I think i also learned to care vastly less about what the people both here and on instagram say about me, having learned how quick to anger forum folk can be.

 

[weo]

I think i also learned to care vastly less about what the people....say about me...

This is important with any relationship that is purely over the internet.

 

[Justin W]

I think there is room for a reduced price "hobby maker/seller" for us newbies to start. The 75 and 350 membership levels are a bit stiff if we are producing a few knives per year. It competes heavily with capital improvements needed to build up your shop and tooling.

I would consider any membership level as being high enough to discuss sales. 30 could give limited access to post in maker sales forum. 75 is full access as normal.

Full disclosure: not a paying member. I am just a few years in, making about 1 knife per month, most were gifts, and a few sold through my own minor network to friends and family who specifically asked to buy them. I don't feel any need to sell for profit yet, mostly just to keep my hobby going. I do respect others ability to do so, and I try not to depress my sales price too low.

 

[Horsewright]

I stopped buying the supplier membership because i found the sort of forum folk a little too intense if you will. Paying ~350 a year to get yelled at and accused of ruining the forum when i mention i sell stuff lost its luster very quickly. I have a website for sales and an instagram page for advertising where i can post what i want and not have to deal with dozens of public comments accusing me of ruining the forum and turning it into my personal advertisement and whatever other nonsense old knifemakers with internet and too much time on their hands care to accuse me of. Its all well and good to say advertising is allowed, but the amount of rules, regulation, and public outcry made it to much of a pain to deal with for free, let alone for 350 a year.

I am happy to lend my advice and answer questions about wood/ wood processing/ stabilizing whenever i can, unlike Adam i do feel a debt to the forums. I got started making crumby knives here as a 14 year old, and i got started selling wood here in highschool and college, which has become my fulltime job, so i do feel a sort of nostalgia and debt to this platform.

I think i also learned to care vastly less about what the people both here and on instagram say about me, having learned how quick to anger forum folk can be.

I for one, (an old knifemaker, with internet and not enough time on my hands), always enjoyed your posts.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

I do think however both stacy and adam have a point. The blade forum is simply not a good place to sell knives, it is no longer a place to expand your business as it may have been when knifemaking was niche. If you want to sell a lot of product, instagram is really the undisputed king of marketing.

If you want to learn about knife making, tools, techniques and have questions answered by knowledgeable people rather than the endless screaming void of social media, bladeforums is the place. To have easy access to experts, who can show and tell what they do and how they do it, the forums are second to none.

For me, selling and working wood has become a business for me, and i need to consider the marketing potential of the places i choose to spend my money. But, i do love the collaborative and educational aspect the bladeforums have, so i dont plan on leaving and will still peruse all the posts for those magic words of "What wood is this"

 

[Richard338]

I do think however both stacy and adam have a point. The blade forum is simply not a good place to sell knives, it is no longer a place to expand your business as it may have been when knifemaking was niche. If you want to sell a lot of product, instagram is really the undisputed king of marketing.

If you want to learn about knife making, tools, techniques and have questions answered by knowledgeable people rather than the endless screaming void of social media, bladeforums is the place. To have easy access to experts, who can show and tell what they do and how they do it, the forums are second to none.

For me, selling and working wood has become a business for me, and i need to consider the marketing potential of the places i choose to spend my money. But, i do love the collaborative and educational aspect the bladeforums have, so i dont plan on leaving and will still peruse all the posts for those magic words of "What wood is this"

Ben, can you please tell me if I'm missing something about how Instagram works?
I tried to join and found most reasonable variations of my name taken. I took a suggested name just to look around. If I search Greenberg Woods I do see your account, but there is still just a link to your website right? If I search a specific maker, they may or may not have an account and activity varies. I'm not really finding the sales or marketing side. Without searching for such, the search page shows lots of bikinis and lingerie...20 or 30 more minutes and I'll give up.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

Ben, can you please tell me if I'm missing something about how Instagram works?
I tried to join and found most reasonable variations of my name taken. I took a suggested name just to look around. If I search Greenberg Woods I do see your account, but there is still just a link to your website right? If I search a specific maker, they may or may not have an account and activity varies. I'm not really finding the sales or marketing side. Without searching for such, the search page shows lots of bikinis and lingerie...20 or 30 more minutes and I'll give up.

Without any background, it will show you the things that engage the lowest common denominator, which you have already found.

If you look up Greenbergwoods, Alec steele, J nielson and the like and start following them, you will start to get more and more recommendations of things similar to what you already like.

AS for the marketing aspect, as you start to interact with accounts like that, and post your own content, people will start to see your content of knives and knife related posts, its a slow process but it does usually work.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

If you want to sell a lot of product, instagram is really the undisputed king of marketing.

Instagram is a good way to market products and interact with customers. However, there are ways to market to a much wider audience that dwarf Instagram.

Marketing does not translate to sales. Our sales from forums are almost 2.5X more than Instagram. I'm sure the sales number comparison for knifemakers is different.

Chuck

 

[Richard338]

Without any background, it will show you the things that engage the lowest common denominator, which you have already found.

If you look up Greenbergwoods, Alec steele, J nielson and the like and start following them, you will start to get more and more recommendations of things similar to what you already like.

AS for the marketing aspect, as you start to interact with accounts like that, and post your own content, people will start to see your content of knives and knife related posts, its a slow process but it does usually work.

This was a big help.
It hadn't occurred to me to follow anyone. As soon as I followed half a dozen people, the AI got the idea and lots of better suggestions came up.

 

[Lorien]

one thing that I can think of which Bladeforums provides, that no other outlet does, is provenance.

 

[P.Brewster]

Personal rant - I really can't understand why a seller who makes serious money off his knives won't pay for a membership on the forum that helped get him well known (and where he still sells knives in The Exchange), but some of them don't have a paid membership. They are regularly advised to get a membership or stop posting photos of knives for sale (except in the allowed places).

I can speak for myself on this one. The reasons why I've been hesitant to pay for a membership are:

1. A track record of absurdly heavy-handed rule enforcement and interpretation. In my case, I joined in 2007 and soon thereafter was hit with infractions regarding selling and signature content. At that time, the rules were written in such a way that I was clearly not in violation. I respectfully pointed this out, communicated my willingness to obey the letter of the law, and communicated my readiness to obey the letter of the law as soon as the rules were updated to reflect the admin's interpretation. The rules were updated but my initial infraction was upheld. Furthermore, I was then hit with a half-dozen more infractions for backdated posts that included my offending signature - in other words, one infraction for every instance that my signature appeared. I assume the absurdity is self-explanatory.

2. A failure to deliver what was promised and paid for. Some years went by, I was off probation for my aforementioned infraction(s) and I was ready to play ball again. At that time, it was advertised that knifemakers who paid for a 3-year membership would receive a dedicated maker's forum. I paid for the 3-year membership and followed instructions to request the forum (including escalating the matter as instructed, finally resulting in a phone call to HQ) but never received the forum.

3. Bladeforum's false sense of value/importance regarding notoriety/sales. I'm basically echoing what has already been said, but speaking for myself, I don't think I gained any notoriety here and I've never sold a single knife here. I don't owe my success to BF.

4. Bladeforum's false sense of value/importance regarding knowledge to be gained. There was a time when we had the participation of many world-class makers - and we still do - but it's been problematic. One of the issues I've noticed in recent years is a treatment of the craft as if there is no room for improvement or exploration. If I may constructively criticize you, Stacy, it will allow me to cite an example: One of the topics that has come up today is the Kool Mist system, and again I'm seeing you treat your personal experience with the matter as if it applies to everyone. All of the threads regarding water cooling are essentially shut down when you offer your opinion that the Kool Mist is the end-all-be-all solution. As a result, BF is not a place where one can learn about the different water-cooling factors/solutions, it is instead a place where one can learn Stacy's way and nothing else. That's just one small example of a problematic trend in this forum.

 

[DanF]

One of the truly great knife makers that used to frequent ShopTalk stated that there is a lack of management here. That runs in two directions; there is a lack of management at times and micro managing at other times.

 

[Willie71]

I used to pay for a knifemaker membership here. I stopped a couple years ago as I have only ever listed one or two items for sale ever. It just didn’t seem worth the cost. I always thought the rule was selling or advertising requires a membership. The idea that mentioning your customer was happy as being considered advertising seems very bizarre to me. That is over the top. If the knife wasn’t listed for sale here, and the customer has no affiliation with blade forums, that excludes the reasonable selling/advertising rule to me. I’ve had a handful of customers contact me in the form of PM or E-mail. Since that was not solicited, no rule should be considered violated in that circumstance either. For a hobbyist like me, I do this for fun.

I used to post a lot, and offer advice, especially regarding heat treat. After getting shit on by the forum, it can do without my contribution. That seems to be a pattern with this forum. Chase away content providers.