Semantics? When is a Fighter a Bowie, or vice-versa?

[SharpByCoop]

I ask this legitimately. The latest round of polls and threads got me looking through my photo collection. I have a good amount of knives with a double guard that may be a fighter--and may be a bowie. Do all 'bowies' also require a double guard? What are single-guard large knives--all camp knives? What if they have a double edge?

Not just the guard defines these two. Are there grey areas? More questions than answers. Let's discuss.

Coop

 

[Kevin Jones]

I'm afraid this may be like asking "what's a custom knife".

So many times a knife is what the maker or current owner chooses to call it.

What's the knife in my avatar? Jerry and I envisioned and designed it as a fighter. But it's called a Bowie. But is a Fighter a style of Bowie? If not, personally I would classify many if not most of the pieces shown in the "Best Bowie" thread as Fighters rather than Bowies.

Interesting to kick around, however at the end of discussion we will most likely be where we began.

 

[Bors]

I always get a kick out of the term "Fighting Knife". This term means different things to different people. To some the design is simple to others complex.


The "Bowie Knife" was born on September 19th 1827 in a Duel. The knife Bowie carried was not a double edged, guarded, serrated pommel spiked thing but was a plain single edged large knife resembling in design what we call today a Chefs knife.

The term "Bowie Knife" has become synonymous with fighting and Large knives and has more to do with size than design alto some people will contend to be a true Bowie it must be of a certain design.

A fighting knife is what ever the user feels comfortable using in a fight regardless of design. The person is more important than the knife or the design after all an idiot with a nice knife is still an idiot.

So IMHO the only requirement to be a "Bowie Knife" is that it be reasonably large and whether it's a "Fighter" or not is up to you.

 

[D lisch]

Well as a maker, and I am going out on a limb here, I think there are a couple things that define a bowie knife: one is some sort of clip point and, I think to fall into bowie category, the guard should run top and bottom of the blade. That is just how I view it if I am making it. I would post a pic if this forum would let me.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I hope this thread lasts a while. Looks like fun!
Kevin, by the way, the confusion about "custom" has never been a problem for me. Thorndike/Barnhart will tell you "made specially for individual customers. Made to order." "according to customer specifications." Pretty cut and dried.
The remainder are just handcrafted or hand made.
Ask a military man what he wants in a "fighter"! He wants it cutting going in AND coming out, a piercing point, with a top edge that cuts as well. (It's for EXTRA hemorrhage when you're IN your opponents body). I think the guard is irrelevant - the most important aspect being the entry and hemorrhagic capabilities.

 

[RogerP]

There is just no hard and fast rule that will distinguish bowies from fighters (the former CAN have a single guard - or no guard at all).

Some knives just scream "fighter" - like a Loveless Big Bear, for example. Just as some knives scream "bowie". But the middle ground is HUGE. I usually go by what the maker calls it - because that's what he intended it to be.

Russ calls this one a bowie - but you couldn't say the term "fighter" is inappropriate.

Craig calls this big beauty a fighter - but a lot of people would look at it and see a "bowie":

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Well as a maker, and I am going out on a limb here, I think there are a couple things that define a bowie knife: one is some sort of clip point and, I think to fall into bowie category, the guard should run top and bottom of the blade. That is just how I view it if I am making it. I would post a pic if this forum would let me.

A Searles bowie 'aint got no clip.

Roger

 

[JParanee]

In my mind a bowie can have a clip point or not it can have a whole guard or a half guard. I think it is more of a size question. There are bowies that lend themselves more to camp knifes and then there are others that are more graceful and balanced for handling that I would call a fighting bowie and there are those blades that are not so purpose driven and find themselves some where inbetween a camp knife and a fighter. I like them all. I do think a fighting bowie needs a sharpened clip and a double guard and should lend itself to a more balanced fast feel than say a bowie meant to chop or do camp chores. I do believe you can get a good compromise between the two and some of these knives pictured do. anything that is sharpened past the clip and all the way to the guard is not a bowie. just my opinion

jp


jp

 

[Starkman1]

I've often pondered this myself. But from what I can tell, a Bowie usually costs more than a fighter.
Bob

 

[Justin.Mercier]

I'll see if I can find the picture, but there was this gorgeous late 1800s bowie that I saw which no one could say it's not a bowie, it was a very nice coffin handle bowie with no guard at all.

I've always thought of a bowie being more describing of the general size and style, one which would encompas most 'fighters' as they are termed today.

 

[ptgdvc]

Jim Bowie was responsible for the sizzle. The actual steak was a rugged knife that could do every task that needed doing on the frontier, chopping, slicing, intimidating and stabbing. It was the Leatherman of its day. The chopping function required size and weight, which is why a 10" blade (plus or minus an inch) became the most popular size. It was big enough, but not too big.

In towns and cities the chopping function was less important than the fighting/stabbing one, which allowed the size and weight of the blade to be decreased. It also made the knife easier and more comfortable to carry. Which increased the places it might be carried and improved its concealability. The result of this progression were the knives and push daggers of Michael Price of San Francisco.

This of course gives me an excuse to show Double Trouble a modern set of fighters by Nick Wheeler, JS.

I suppose that a picture of the difference is worth 1,000 words.

A Bowie and a Fighter by Jason Knight, MS

 

[Bors]

Bowie was the catalyst after the sandbar duel every one wanted a Bowie knife. The fact that no one (except those present) really new what it looked liked kind of opened the door for design interpretation.

So.... here is some food for thought.

Duels were still fought on a daily bases for the next 40 years or so. Gentleman of the day were expected to know how to defend their or their ladies honor. Duels typically used specialized weapons made to very high standards. Use of these weapons was generally taught at specialized schools.

I wounder if some "Bowies" were in fact designed specifically for the duel in much the same fasion as the matched set of dueling pistols.

Upper class Gentleman probably had a greater need for specialized knife than a general camp knife. Given that they probably had slaves to do the general work.

 

[John Frankl]

Bors,

That is very interesting. Could you point out a few examples of extant pieces designed specifically as fighting knives?

Thanks,

John

 

[Mike Carter Custom Knives]

I agree that what we consider a Bowie today probably bears little resemblance to the original Bowie. However, I think the the main feature that distinguishes a Bowie is the clip point.

Most Bowies do seem to have a double guard. As I understand it, the purpose of the double guard is to catch your opponents blade and keep it from getting to your hand. It that sense, the Bowie is a fighter as that is what it was supposedly designed and used for.

Most of the "fighting" knives that I have seen had a bit narrower blade than the "traditional" Bowie.

I am a long time collector of Hibben knives.

Here is Hibben's Alamo Bowie

and his Iron Mistress Bowie

Among Hibben "fighting" knives are the Viet Nam Fighter

The Kenpo Fighter or Ed Parker Fighting Knife

 

[D lisch]

I thought this fit well as an example of dueling bowies these are my first bowies ever, so I made them a nice forged copper box, with a damascus key for the lock. made in 2006. never been used.

 

[jkarp_53]

Awesome photos and history gents, thanks!

 

[canineforge]

Interesting to kick around, however at the end of discussion we will most likely be where we began.

We may end up back at go, but it will be great getting input from various areas of the custom knife community, historians included.
My simple-minded way of handling this to date has been, if it didn't have that 'bowie-look' or that 'fighter-look', it must be a 'fighter/bowie'.
I hope I can expand on that toward the end of this discussion.

- Joe

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

A Searles bowie 'aint got no clip.

Roger

But, who called Searles knife a "Bowie" in the first place?

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

From my "Imperial Dictionary of the English Language" printed in 1903 in London, Glasgow and Dublin, England:

"Bowie Knife - A knife from 10 to 15 inches long, and about 2 inches broad, worn as a weapon in the United States of America".

And from the World Book Dictionary:
"a long, curved single-edged hunting knife with a blade from 10 - 15 inches long, carried in a sheath."

 

[Raymond Richard]

Here's a couple of mine from earlier this year. I've always felt a bowie was a fighting knife and the one with the stag handle could go either way.