Semantics? When is a Fighter a Bowie, or vice-versa?

[Keith Montgomery]

Okay, here's my personal opinion. A fighter should have a double sharpened edge. On a bowie that would mean a sharpened false edge/swedge. They should also have a point designed for penetration, and be balanced to be quick in the hand.

Bowies do not need to have a double guard. Many bowies have a single guard, or no guard at all. For example, Bowie No.1 and the others that are accredited to James Black by many of the experts. Bowies also don't need to have large blades. Look at the Sheffield bowies. Many had blades no longer than 6 inches. Also, a great many of the San Francisco style bowies had blades under 6 inches. There were also the vest bowies used by gamblers and gentlemen.

Bowies come with clipped points, trailing points, spear points and straight points.

 

[Murray White]

Hi Ray

WoW!! I have watched the posts you have made and looked at your knives at MKA and this Sanbar Bowie is the nicest knife I can recall you posting or having and it is really something.

Had that been at MKA I'd have been going home with another piece. Congrats on one terrific looking knife.

Oh, just a comment re the photos -- leave a bit more space around the knife image itself. Just a wee bit tight to the tip and butt on the knife in the images

 

[Justin.Mercier]

Ah that's the name I was looking for James Black, that's who made the coffin handle bowie that I'm thinking of. Was a post civil war bowie that I saw that was attributed to him. If I remember, most of his bowies were guardles, at least the surviving examples.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Jim Bowie was responsible for the sizzle. The actual steak was a rugged knife that could do every task that needed doing on the frontier, chopping, slicing, intimidating and stabbing. It was the Leatherman of its day. The chopping function required size and weight, which is why a 10" blade (plus or minus an inch) became the most popular size. It was big enough, but not too big.

In towns and cities the chopping function was less important than the fighting/stabbing one, which allowed the size and weight of the blade to be decreased. It also made the knife easier and more comfortable to carry. Which increased the places it might be carried and improved its concealability. The result of this progression were the knives and push daggers of Michael Price of San Francisco.

I suppose that a picture of the difference is worth 1,000 words.

A Bowie and a Fighter by Jason Knight, MS

IMO, I would classify these as large and small fighters? Or large and small bowies? Or whatever Jason says they are?

 

[RogerP]

But, who called Searles knife a "Bowie" in the first place?

That would definitely be before my time. But the knife below did win Harvey Dean an award at the 2002 Blade Show...

... from the Antique Bowie Knife Assocoation. No clip, no double guard....

Roger

 

[Raymond Richard]

Hi Ray

WoW!! I have watched the posts you have made and looked at your knives at MKA and this Sanbar Bowie is the nicest knife I can recall you posting or having and it is really something.

Had that been at MKA I'd have been going home with another piece. Congrats on one terrific looking knife.

Oh, just a comment re the photos -- leave a bit more space around the knife image itself. Just a wee bit tight to the tip and butt on the knife in the images

Murray, Both those knives moved real fast. Thanks for the compliment! As for the photos both were sent to me from Blade Gallery. I shrunk them both down and for some reason the bowie is coming up full sized.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, by the way, the confusion about "custom" has never been a problem for me. Thorndike/Barnhart will tell you "made specially for individual customers. Made to order." "according to customer specifications." Pretty cut and dried.

I like the simplicity of your definitions, however I believe MOST use "customs" and "handmades" synonymously.

And then of course, there's the what constitutes a handmade? Completely by hand? Using Handtools? Electric tools? CNC? The back and forth on that seems endless.

 

[Jeff Clark]

I come from an older viewpoint of what makes a "fighter". Back in the days of duels with rapiers they made scaled down rapiers known as daggers. These were intended as fighters (or at least backup). Back in the 19th century a naval sidearm was pretty common called a "dirk". This was fairly often a curved blade like the tip end of a saber. That was intended as a fighter. In Scottland they had real dirks that were more like the tip end of a straight broad sword. That was also a fighter. In north america there were trade knives that were somewhat shaped like the end of a pike. These were also fighters.

Then came our indigenous american style we called a Bowie knife. It had a lot of roots, but evolved into a clipped point that was distinctly not a scaled down sword, spear point or bayonet. It was designed and balanced to do serious field work and also serve as a serious deadly sidearm (in an era of inconvenient cap-and-ball pistols). It grew up out of knife roots rather than shrunk down out of sword roots. What we now label as a "fighter" is commonly just an evolution of a bowie knife. Often it is one that has been lightened to be a little better for fighting and a little less effective for field work, but it is just a modern bowie. With the high capacity and high reliability of modern firearms the urgency to have that bowie knife is highly diminished, but the design traces back to developments in the USA of a serious side arm knife.

I don't like people getting too tied into the notion that a "fighter" has to be a modern bowie. For example I think that a WWII Randall Model 2 is a classic "fighter": https://www.randallknives.com/catalog.php?action=modeldetail&id=29

I would also claim that there are plenty of khukris that qualify as "fighters".

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I like the simplicity of your definitions, however I believe MOST use "customs" and "handmades" synonymously.

And then of course, there's the what constitutes a handmade? Completely by hand? Using Handtools? Electric tools? CNC? The back and forth on that seems endless.

Gotcha, Kevin. But, they're not MY definitions - those are from people who catalog the English language as it already exists.
About "handmade" is a dead horse that's been beat faaaaaaaaar beyond death.
But "custom" is a word used far to loosely.
I'm always amazed at how those in this industry try to define and re-define words that already have definitions to suit their own needs.

 

[Bors]

Bors,

That is very interesting. Could you point out a few examples of extant pieces designed specifically as fighting knives?

Thanks,

John

That's just the thing documentation on bowie knives is almost non existent and I have not seen one that spacificaly states it's for dueling however that dosen't mean they were not made. Dueling swords and dueling pistols were made and how to use them was taught so logically since Bowie knife use was also taught in New Orleans it stands to reason that specialized knives would also be made.

I have looked at quite a few historical Bowies and not one had a sharp clip point. Of all the pics I've seen only a few appear to be sharpened.

This is the Edwin Forrest Bowie which many believe is the front runner for the actual knife Bowie used in the Sandbar duel, at the very least it's from that period. Blade is ~12" long

This one is from 1840s, Its one of the few period examples I've seen where the clip even looks like it was sharpened. Blade is ~11" Long. Evolution in process.

I'm not saying that A Bowie knife has to have a Sharp clip to be a fighting knife just that knives like this may have been made with dueling in mind rather than camp chors.


My Model 12 Randall which is not to far off from the historical thing.

 

[Bors]

I come from an older viewpoint of what makes a "fighter". Back in the days of duels with rapiers they made scaled down rapiers known as daggers. These were intended as fighters (or at least backup). Back in the 19th century a naval sidearm was pretty common called a "dirk". This was fairly often a curved blade like the tip end of a saber. That was intended as a fighter. In Scottland they had real dirks that were more like the tip end of a straight broad sword. That was also a fighter. In north america there were trade knives that were somewhat shaped like the end of a pike. These were also fighters.

Then came our indigenous american style we called a Bowie knife. It had a lot of roots, but evolved into a clipped point that was distinctly not a scaled down sword, spear point or bayonet. It was designed and balanced to do serious field work and also serve as a serious deadly sidearm (in an era of inconvenient cap-and-ball pistols). It grew up out of knife roots rather than shrunk down out of sword roots. What we now label as a "fighter" is commonly just an evolution of a bowie knife. Often it is one that has been lightened to be a little better for fighting and a little less effective for field work, but it is just a modern bowie. With the high capacity and high reliability of modern firearms the urgency to have that bowie knife is highly diminished, but the design traces back to developments in the USA of a serious side arm knife.

I don't like people getting too tied into the notion that a "fighter" has to be a modern bowie. For example I think that a WWII Randall Model 2 is a classic "fighter": https://www.randallknives.com/catalog.php?action=modeldetail&id=29

I would also claim that there are plenty of khukris that qualify as "fighters".

I agree Jeff the bowie has deep roots. It could be argued back to Scramasaxes and possibly even futher back. Their are certainly examples of German knives (Messers) with what apear to be clip points and sabers with the top back edge sharpened 6" or 8" back were not un-common. It has been theorised that Bowie techniques may have derived from saber techniques of the period

 

[jdm61]

When does an 7-9 inch clip point fighter become a "cowboy bowie"? When you are trying to sell or show one someplace like British Blades where words like "fighter" and "combat" are a no-no Call 'em whatcha want......just make 'em nice:thumbup:

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

When does an 7-9 inch clip point fighter become a "cowboy bowie"? When you are trying to sell or show one someplace like British Blades where words like "fighter" and "combat" are a no-no Call 'em whatcha want......just make 'em nice:thumbup:

I'm with you!!
I'm gonna make a Custom Handmade Fighting Bowie!

 

[Bors]

When does an 7-9 inch clip point fighter become a "cowboy bowie"? When you are trying to sell or show one someplace like British Blades where words like "fighter" and "combat" are a no-no Call 'em whatcha want......just make 'em nice:thumbup:

When we start having cowboys..........

 

[SharpByCoop]

D lisch: Excellent set. Very talented work. Don't stay anonymous.

Jeff Clark: Thanks for the history lesson.

Others: Nice examples.

OK, so now since the actual knife was used in a 'fighting' scenario, this does cast a fresh appeal to 'fighters' as being just as valid a knife to be called a Bowie, as is a 2 1/2" wide, 12" long oval-guarded knife. Which really seems to meet the current 'definition'.

Karl reminded us that definitions are all subject to change and review anyway.

Coop

 

[Kevin Jones]

Myself, for simplicity sake, I categorize fighters and camp knives as styles of Bowies, just as bird&trout and skinners as Hunters.

 

[Ebbtide]

With the rise of repeating pistols and rifles the carry knife got smaller.
Cowboys didn't need a big fighter as much as they needed a handy working knife.
Styled and labeled after Bowie because he was still the man.

My own humble opinion is that the majority of the knives listed in the other Bowie ballot thread are fighters not bowies.
They look modern with the long sweeping curves, flat grinds and guards rounded into the handle.

The Sheffield knives of the bowie era were completly different.
Not many flat grinds, saber was a much more common grind. Guards were one piece and slipped onto the stick tang. Framed handles.

I think it was a Harvey Dean dogbone that was recently posted...
That's a bowie.


A flip thru the bowie ballot thread followed by a flip thru Flayderman's book would be enlightening. Or would illustrate what I'm trying to say.

Camp knives (again IMNSHO) are/were/should be really butch kitchen knives.
A knife that could chop veggies n' taters, take apart the days kill then reduce some kindling to splinters to get the fire started.
They must be long enough to get to the bottom of the mayo jar as well.

Interestingly, the bowie that Bowie used at the Sandbar Brawl was described by an eye witness as "a big butcher knife".
So maybe the original bowie was a camp knife

"I want a knife like Bowie's!

Guardless coffin handles are my personal favorite

(Forged by Bruce Evans, 5160 & mammoth ivory)

 

[Kohai999]

I think of fighters as having a) the "fighter" guard, as opposed to a plate guard, but always double lugs, UNLESS done in an ethnic style...Brazilian, Persian.....

b) fighters, to me, always have a slim blade, less than 1 1/2"....this would be the prime dividing border from "bowie"....that and less belly in the front 1/3rd.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Lorien]

Well I don't know very much, but I'm learning so much from keeping up with these interesting threads. My humble perception of this topic:

To me, a fighter means a blade less than 7" long but more than 4 1/2", with a point close in line with the end of the handle, and a deeply ground or fullered blade to keep most of the weight at the handle. An upper swage sharpened or not, or double edged. With or without quillion, but usually with.

I understand a bowie as having a 7"-12" blade, a heavy handle to bias the weight to that end of the knife, the inline point and double quillion. a top swage for a pointy point, sharpened or not.

A camp knife I think would eschew quillion completely in order to perform well for cooking, could have a blade from 6"-12", usually a dropped or trailing point, without a swage in order to have a good strong point. The centerline of the handle could angle down from the point up to about 10 degrees, or the edge drops below the handle, and weight biased toward the blade.

I think that a bowie IS a fighting knife, designed for point control, quick handling and piercing ability.

This spiel isn't taking into consideration knives from other cultures, as often there will be fighting knives like the khukuri or kopis that are heavier and more utilitarian for those fighting one another, (and roughing it) without the 'benefit' of modern arms ie; old skool. That is why there or other names for, and more variety of knives from continents other than the North American one.

To me, the bowie is ultimately derived from European edged arms, which often seem to feature fine point control over general utility. The bowie offers both utility, (due to its added heft and size for camp use) and handling suited towards martial pursuits.

 

[jdm61]

I think of fighters as having a) the "fighter" guard, as opposed to a plate guard, but always double lugs, UNLESS done in an ethnic style...Brazilian, Persian.....

b) fighters, to me, always have a slim blade, less than 1 1/2"....this would be the prime dividing border from "bowie"....that and less belly in the front 1/3rd.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Interesting. I tend to give all of my bowie style blades that "nose down" profile of which you speak regardless of how wide the blade is. I am finishing oneup for the Gator Cutlery Club show that has a straight clip 11 1/2 x 1 5/8 W2 blade.........guess i can call it a "dueling bowie"