Send back for Warranty or ignore it ? - Part 2 - the return of the bad grind.

[Halfneck]

That stinks,

If everything else about the knife was fine, and I was unable to reprofile it myself, I'd send it to a professional sharpener to fix.

 

[Wowbagger]

. . .
Generally though the edge is easy to fix and relatively cheap to get a professional to regrind it perfectly. Ive only ever returned knives for major issues.

Yes this ^.

For me it is about the knife; if I like it and it works for me design wise I've won.
I am too used to shoddy work and there is nothing I can do about moving the knife makers little hands at the design stage or the manufacturing stage. The best I can do is finish the job and fix the flaws when I get it.

I reprofile and resharpen most any knife I buy anyway. If this isn't in your skill set . . . well . . . in the knife world . . . you're screwed. Sure you can send it out to be properly sharpened. If it's a user at some point you are going to have to learn to do this.

Hades! Even FROST puts a better edge than that on their $1.98 made in Afghanistan mystery "steel" Gas Station Specials!

Well yeah . . . it is a well know fact that edge quality varies inversely with the price of the knife. My ten dollar Cold Steel three inch paring knives (I have three) are consistently hair whittling and perfectly symmetrical from the factory.

Two hundred dollar knives ? . . . time to bussssout the Edge Pro again. Good thing I like sharpening with the Edge Pro.

 

[Dan of Bazz Clazz]

Unacceptable. At any price point.
Lazy work, poor QC and CS. Why are we not saying the MFR? Because we all already know? Or we don’t want to rustle the fanboys?

I understand your curiosity. I'm not saying the manufacturer, so that I get untainted opinions from the knowledge and experience base here on BF. Just want to deal with the facts and the situation. Is this an acceptable level of workmanship, regardless of the price, origin, or who made it?
If some knew the manufacturer, price, origin, etc, an opinion might change from "unacceptable - send it back!" to "well what did you expect?". I'm just asking the good folks here for unbiased opinions to help me determine if I am being nit picky or unreasonable.

If I’m not happy with the grind on a knife I bought, I’ll send it back immediately for a full refund. My question is, why didn’t you do this in the first place? If I get a bad grind but don’t care, I’ll fix it myself. Both instances have happened, and I was happy with the result. Nobody should spend more time than it takes to do either, than it takes to reprofile a knife.

Actually, I did. As referred to in my original post, I first sent it back to the vendor and that was a long story in itself. That transaction can be summarized as this:

1. Got knife in July with a bad grind, Bad knife #1, bad grind #1.
2. I initially ask BF members, (just as I am doing now), what would they do in the situation?

Going in I know my options are:
I can ignore it, life is too short to worry about it.
I can re-profile the knife myself, though it will not be the quality of a factory grind. (Now I am starting to wonder).
- If I choose "principle of the thing" accepting the additional time, shipping costs, effort, etc. -
I can send it back to the vendor for a replacement.
I can send it back to the factory service for either a regrind, or preferably, a replacement. Have dealt with them before on other issues, warranty and not. They have been wonderful in the past. Fantastic support.

3. Choosing the principle of the thing, and to my own detriment, I contacted the vendor to send it back.
4. I tell the vendor "I want a replacement, not a refund", and since it is defective, I should get a prepaid mailer label to return it.
5. Vendor says no problem.
6. Vendor sends a prepaid mailer (takes a couple of attempts) and I drop the knife off at the post office.
7. I provide vendor with the tracking number letting them know it is on the way back.
(Everything is cool up to this point and the vendor is giving to-be-expected great service). And then...

8. Vendor contacts me a day later and says, " I checked inventory and we are out of stock of that knife so we will be giving you a refund."
9. I contact them, this time pissed. "You knew I wanted a replacement. I could just as easily have sent it to the factory customer service and shipped it to them instead of you! When that knife arrives, send it back to me!"
(This is what happens when you are trying to hold the value on a "sales price" that prompted you to buy in the first place.

10. Vendor says she doesn't know if they can do it given the different departments, volume of business, yada yada, but they will try.
11. Vendor receives knife #1 and then ships it back to me. Overall the vendor has been great and I would buy from again.
12. I ship knife #1 with bad grind #1 back to the manufacturer for replacement, specifically requesting they inspect the replacement before shipping. The truly unfortunate thing is that according to the paperwork I got back, this may actually have happened.
13. I receive from the manufacturer, Knife #2 with bad grind #2 (and outstanding achievement for making a simple defective product situation a whole lot worse).
14. I repeat the process, again asking BF members for their input recognizing my frustration could be making more out of this than I should. Which lands us back at this current thread, again with my options as presented in stage #2 above. The programmers here will no doubt recognize this as a dreaded infinite loop.

From a good part of the responses, it doesn't look like I am letting my frustrations cloud my judgement too bad.

Told you it was a long story, and that is just the main highlights. lol

 

[Yonose]

Doesn’t sound like the sale price was worth it. What company makes the knife?

 

[afishhunter]

I've owned some of those knives in the past and got rid of every one (except the RAT1. Value there is inarguable). Yes, they worked, but you get what you pay for. poor fit & finish, poor action, and quite plain looking. If that makes me a snob than so be it.

I've never seen a Buck 110 with poor fit 'n finish, or poor action.
If you think wood 'n brass or the combinations available at the custom shop or SFO's out there are "plain looking" ... so be it. A lot of folks disagree with your assessment.
The Rough Riders and other inexpensive brands I mentioned above, that you returned or got rid of?
Were the Traditional's or Modern OHO and/or assisted opening models?

I've zero experience with their modern knives; not my style. I prefer the traditional slipjoint patterns, preferably with multiple blades: Stockman, Barlow, Canoe, Trapper/Moose, Sunfish, etc.
I've never gotten a RR traditional knife with bad fit 'n finish, less than acceptable walk 'n talk. I will admit to intentionally getting some that are "plain looking"; a couple Old Yeller handled ones come to mind, for instance.
I don't always need or want "fancy".
I do have a couple "fancy" RR though for 'Go to Meetin' use. An (imitation) Abalone handled Barlow, and/or a StoneWorx large Stockman are not out of place carried in my pocket at the Sunday Meetin' ... nor is the SK Blades Lil'Jack 112, or a brass 'n wood 110 I have on my belt.

 

[midnight flyer]

I understand your curiosity. I'm not saying the manufacturer, so that I get untainted opinions from the knowledge and experience base here on BF. Just want to deal with the facts and the situation. Is this an acceptable level of workmanship, regardless of the price, origin, or who made it?

SNIP

Maybe a bit of a change of perspective. I have bought several knives spotted as good buys here on BF as gifts for friends. A couple of Ruike models, a couple of new Kershaws, and an older model Kershaw. No knife exceeded $25, and the older Kershaw was a "Crown" that was $12 (Walmart version).

First, the BF collective here was certainly right about the Ruike knives. Excellent (not good... excellent) fit, finish and operation. They have since jumped about $8 since I bought them, but really worth the dough. I liked the 121 and the 108 enough I bought them myself to keep. The Kershaws had good grinds, good operation, and pretty good edges when I got them and are still under $25 with shipping.

So the point is that all of those knives came in better shape than the pictures of the crappy work you showed in your pics. All of them functioned very well, to great. In fact, I have turned enough guys to the Ruike 121 that the local hunting shop can't keep them in stock. So my point is that even inexpensive knife makers can maintain a certain very good to high standard of quality control. If the guys delivering crappy products can't deliver quality at their price point, then they need to raise their prices.

Second, I am a contractor. So I like to see things from my client's perspective when they ask for something different, tell me that they have certain expectations or want to understand the level of service and materials they are paying for when using my services.

So in this perspective, I am trying to imagine me out on the job with a customer and talking about my work and their expectations. Client: "Robert, we both know that we expected the walls to have the same paint color on them, but this back wall isn't painted". Me: "Well, at this point you might want to consider painting it yourself, because even though you paid me for a finished product, I might make harder on you than if you finished it yourself."

Client: "The cabinets doors don't line up, and some of them aren't fitting right. I guess I could fix them myself, but I am unsure if I shouldn't just fix your lazy screw up and lack of quality control myself. Would that be better for you? <imitating a door mat> I could you know... I know how... I guess it isn't that big a job for me to do your work..." Me: "Hell yeah! You know, maybe you should never have expected a fully finished product from me. Maybe you should just plan on doing part of my work for me to the point where you won't even have to ask."

I promise you... nearly 40 years of self employment... never has that scenario occurred. I do small repairs (under $200) to a $150,000 remodel signing in the next couple of weeks. IT IS ALWAYS THE SAME. My clients want what they pay for and between us we make sure they get it. My clients don't pick up the slack for me if they think they didn't get the goods and services they pay for, and I won't deliver a crappy product.

If I was working at your house and finished your kitchen contract for remodeling announcing that I was delivering a finished product, but then you find I didn't install the dishwasher, would you take screwdriver and pliers in hand and do it yourself? You could do it in about half an hour, so not much time is involved. Maybe about the same amount of time to reprofile and sharpen a knife. So....

I am finishing up the landscaping in your yard, and I am down to the last four bushes being planted. You are on vacation, and I text you that you have a finished product as we described and contracted. You trust me and my reputation and you send me the balance of all monies owed. You get back, and realize that the landscaping isn't finished. Do you call me, or do you say, "well, I know how to use a shovel and there is a YouTube video showing how to plant these bushes so I think I will do it myself."

None of that has ever happened to me, nor would I let it. I don't understand the whole "I shouldn't expect what I was promised or what I paid for", or "I guess I should allow poor quality work or products because it is easier for me and I just don't want to stand up for myself."

No one has ever offered to do my work for me for free, and certainly no one has offered to do my quality control at no charge. I don't think anyone should. I am paid to deliver a finished product and that is what I do.

Robert

 

[stonproject]

I must respectfully disagree.
When I buy a knife or whatever regardless of the price, I expect to be able to use it when I take it out of the packaging.
If I can't use it out of the package, what good is it?

My most expensive knife is a SK Blades Lil' Jack Buck 112 that cost $69.
Next most expensive are a Buck 301 Stockman, and an SK Blades "Smoke Jumper" Buck 110LT, both just under $40 each.
At the $30 price range I have a couple nothing special Buck 110's and an Ontario RAT 1 (Aus 8 blade version, not the D2) from Wally World.
Every other knife I own is a Rough Rider, Old Timer, Rite Edge, Colt, Marbles, Sarge, Böker "Magnum" or "Plus", etc.
All were under $20. Most were in the $8 to $15 range.
Not one of my knives came with a bad edge, bad fit and finish, blade wobble, or a blade hitting the liner.
If Rough Rider can build a two bladed knife with no defects and both blades have even grinds, and sell it at a profit for $8 shipped ... Why can't the manufacturer of a knife that costs $100 and more do it?!?

Why pay a premium for a name when a Rough Rider meets or exceeds the quality of the "big name" knife, will last just as long, if not longer, and has a lifetime warranty, to boot?

A knife is a tool.
Why buy Snap-On or Mac and pay a premium for the name, when a Huskey from Home Depot and whatever brand Walmart is using on their tools now, works just as well, and has the same lifetime warranty as Snap-On and Mac?

My Great Grandfather, (1881-1973) who was a practical man, taught me you don't have to pay a premium to get premium products.
He drove a 4 door 1948 or 1949 or 1950 Ford sedan (I never could tell them apart just by looking. I think it was a '48) from new to at least 1968. He drove a Rambler station wagon after that until he passed.
I don't know who made his wheelchair.
His main knife was a Ulster Stockman, and a pipe smoker's knife, the brand of which I never knew.
He also had some of those Prince Edward knives you mailed a dollar or along with a coupon that was in the can for the knife.
No idea who got them.
The Ulster is probably in his pocket. Family Tradition is/was to put their favorite pocket knife in their pocket "so they can take it with them."

His tractor was an International.

His shotgun was an H&R break open single shot 12 gauge, that he kept in the barn, and used for fox/wolf, crow, upland game and deer. (Iowa did/does not allow a centerfire rifle for deer) As far as I know, one of his great-great or great-great-great grand kids is still using that shotgun.

Most of his clothes and boots came from Sears and/or Montgomery Wards.

In short, he never bought anything for "snob appeal" but everything he owned was durable, long lasting, and high quality.

Im not gonna read that whole wall of text but ill touch on your first point. The edge pictured by OP is 100% useable. Its not perfect by any means, but itll cut just fine, and its easily remedied if its something that really bothers you. Its like buying a bicycle and then taking it back to the store because the tire went flat.

 

[afishhunter]

Its like buying a bicycle and then taking it back to the store because the tire went flat.

Well ... The bicycle shop did put some sealant in the tubes (charged me $15 a Tyre, too!!) and guaranteed me they would not go flat in a year.
So, yeah ... I did take it back to the bike shop when the tire was flat an hour later ....


I'm car free. My only transportation is a bicycle (presently in the shop) or an "old pfart's" adult trike.

I can still pedal, but I can't walk more than 75-100 yards without severe back, knee and hip pain - even with a cane.

 

[ndmiller]

What's the knife brand?

 

[Yonose]

It’s hard to judge the edge by photos, especially without seeing the entire blade. Can you at least tell us what steel is used?

 

[Dan of Bazz Clazz]

It’s hard to judge the edge by photos, especially without seeing the entire blade. Can you at least tell us what steel is used?

Not that it matters since the type of steel has no bearing on whether a blade is badly ground or not by the maker, but the steel is Bohler N695. The real issues at play are these.

Manufacturer made and allowed to get out of the factory, a knife that was defective in its manufacture. The guy doing the grinding, should have caught it. The people doing QC should definitely have caught it. But stuff happens. I gave them feedback on their manufacturing, and more important, I gave them the opportunity to make it right. As a business owner myself, if I screw something up, let me know and I'll make it right. Few things are more frustrating than to have something slip through the cracks and not hearing about it, not being given the chance to make it right, and getting badmouthed anyway.

In this particular case, the manufacturer was given the chance to make good, and not only did they fail to do so, they made it worse, by sending a replacement with far worse grind than the knife I returned. The fact that knife #1 got out of the factory MAY be excused since the bad grind was the last inch at the heel. The second knife's grind is far more obvious, and incredibly dull knife as well for the entire length of the blade. It does not feel like they even created an apex with the grinds. The only thing I have confidence in this knife cutting though is pudding, and that may be stretching its abilities.

Bottom line is the first knife I returned was far better in every way than the knife they sent me as a replacement. It is almost as if they picked the worst knife possible to send me either out of spite or to get back at their employer. I'll be communicating with the factory reps tomorrow, but am definitely going above the customer service dept. Wonder how high I am going to have to go to find someone who gives a rat's ass about the products they make or if such a person can even be found.

 

[Yonose]

I asked what steel because I was thinking of the ease of doing your own regrind— but the point is moot because of the further details you revealed in your last post. In light of this more detailed description of events, I agree that you have no recourse but to do what you have to do; raise hell, get a perfect example of the knife in question, and maybe get a huge discount on another knife. If you can’t get anyone helpful on the phone, a letter addressed to the departmental head of customer relations, sales or even the chief of operations would be the next step.

 

[Makael]

Looking for Knife Knut viewpoints.

So this is a bit hard for me to believe, but I'm still dealing with the same knife and manufacturer that I was asking for advice on over a month ago in what turned out to be part one of this saga.

Quick summary:
Bought a new knife, had crappy incomplete grind on one side at the heel. Basically only got a chisel grind at that end.

Sent it back first to the dealer, and then to the manufacturer. (Long story there too.)
Asked the manufacturer to inspect the replacement knife for defects before shipping it back to me.

This is what I got back. Grind is far worse than the knife I returned. It is not just that the grind at the tip and belly are uneven. The tip / belly on one side has a double grind, Ground at one angle, and then a second pass at a different angle. Almost like they were trying to make a convex grind. But trust me, my convex grind knives from Opinel and Bark River, far sharper than this thing.

It's not that it won't cut paper, this can hardly cut gravy.

Here are photos of the latest knife. What say you?

Does this warrant getting sent back or am I being too picky and dwelling on the slightest flaws given the previous history I have had with this knife. The manufacturer has had a checkered past regarding quality according to numerous posts on BF. I have maybe 15 of their knives, most are fixed blade hunting knives and have always had great service and almost zero complaints about QC. But this one is showing me what others may have been talking about.

Let me know what you would do if you received a new knife that came like this.


Opposite sides of the same knife

Both sides of the same knife for the full edge. Note the 2 level grind on one side. Sorry for the vertical placement. BF is doing it.

Close up of 2 angle grind. One pass falls way short of the apex. Quite frankly, not sure if the grinds on either side actually formed an apex.

Wouldn't bother me. Plus the sharpening skills will make it worse or better. Only a few guys on here ever show their skills on sharpening. We sure see lots of people up in arms about a manufacturers skills.

Should start a thread with people showing their own sharpening work. I dont think we would see too much good stuff. With a few exceptions. TLE for example.

 

[Yonose]

Definitely not from me—I sharpen my own knives but am no expert, by any means.

 

[lzeplin]

If I'd been through all that waiting and shipping and it still wasn't right I would get my money back and say screw it!

 

[TheEdge01]

A lot of interesting responses here. I would probably send it back for a refund. I have actually returned knives myself due to quality issues. You didn’t fill out a checklist marking everything you expected from this manufacturer and agreed that a flawed edge would be acceptable. You paid for a fully functional product, they obviously didn’t hold up their end of the bargain.

 

[Danke42]

What brand is it? Maybe they are just junk and the first one was the best they can do.

 

[PirateSeulb]

Given all that has been said by OP he isn't happy with it and shouldn't be and since the vendor was ultimately removed from the equations looks like he is stuck with pursuing with the maker, who should be accountable for defective products, or fixing it himself or sending it out to a service to have it fixed. I would rather have the maker fix it or a refund but that may not be possible.

I am curious to who the maker is regardless of all things it is just an itch I need to scratch.

 

[shinyedges]

I understand your curiosity. I'm not saying the manufacturer, so that I get untainted opinions from the knowledge and experience base here on BF. Just want to deal with the facts and the situation. Is this an acceptable level of workmanship, regardless of the price, origin, or who made it?
If some knew the manufacturer, price, origin, etc, an opinion might change from "unacceptable - send it back!" to "well what did you expect?". I'm just asking the good folks here for unbiased opinions to help me determine if I am being nit picky or unreasonable.




Actually, I did. As referred to in my original post, I first sent it back to the vendor and that was a long story in itself. That transaction can be summarized as this:

1. Got knife in July with a bad grind, Bad knife #1, bad grind #1.
2. I initially ask BF members, (just as I am doing now), what would they do in the situation?

Going in I know my options are:
I can ignore it, life is too short to worry about it.
I can re-profile the knife myself, though it will not be the quality of a factory grind. (Now I am starting to wonder).
- If I choose "principle of the thing" accepting the additional time, shipping costs, effort, etc. -
I can send it back to the vendor for a replacement.
I can send it back to the factory service for either a regrind, or preferably, a replacement. Have dealt with them before on other issues, warranty and not. They have been wonderful in the past. Fantastic support.

3. Choosing the principle of the thing, and to my own detriment, I contacted the vendor to send it back.
4. I tell the vendor "I want a replacement, not a refund", and since it is defective, I should get a prepaid mailer label to return it.
5. Vendor says no problem.
6. Vendor sends a prepaid mailer (takes a couple of attempts) and I drop the knife off at the post office.
7. I provide vendor with the tracking number letting them know it is on the way back.
(Everything is cool up to this point and the vendor is giving to-be-expected great service). And then...

8. Vendor contacts me a day later and says, " I checked inventory and we are out of stock of that knife so we will be giving you a refund."
9. I contact them, this time pissed. "You knew I wanted a replacement. I could just as easily have sent it to the factory customer service and shipped it to them instead of you! When that knife arrives, send it back to me!"
(This is what happens when you are trying to hold the value on a "sales price" that prompted you to buy in the first place.

10. Vendor says she doesn't know if they can do it given the different departments, volume of business, yada yada, but they will try.
11. Vendor receives knife #1 and then ships it back to me. Overall the vendor has been great and I would buy from again.
12. I ship knife #1 with bad grind #1 back to the manufacturer for replacement, specifically requesting they inspect the replacement before shipping. The truly unfortunate thing is that according to the paperwork I got back, this may actually have happened.
13. I receive from the manufacturer, Knife #2 with bad grind #2 (and outstanding achievement for making a simple defective product situation a whole lot worse).
14. I repeat the process, again asking BF members for their input recognizing my frustration could be making more out of this than I should. Which lands us back at this current thread, again with my options as presented in stage #2 above. The programmers here will no doubt recognize this as a dreaded infinite loop.

From a good part of the responses, it doesn't look like I am letting my frustrations cloud my judgement too bad.

Told you it was a long story, and that is just the main highlights. lol

You holding back pertinent information is annoying. Just tell us how much the knife costs and who made it. If it's a 3 dollar Ozark trail or a 400 dollar Benchmade, it makes a difference.

Frankly, I don't like supporting the bad habits of poor QC from companies that charge a hefty premium. Period. The "oh fix it yourself crowd" condones shoddy work. Screw that, charge me a large *guap and I want a product worthy of said large *guap. Lol


*I haven't heard the term guap in years and I'm not sure why I just used it lol

 

[Danke42]

Bark River?