Send out for heat treat, evenheat oven, or forge.

Will Batayte

Will Batayte

Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
640
Ok so I've now bought all my tools except a heat treat oven. I have the money to get the 22" 240 volt evenheat rampmaster. That being said I also have a washtub forge or there is always the option to send out for H.T. Using the forge is a gamble. I have very little faith in my heat treat ability using this method. I wasn't 100% happy with that forge to begin with and I would rather not waste time and knives on a second rate heat treat. I'm attempting to start knifemaking as a career so will not sell a knife with a heat treat I'm not 100% confident in.

My other options are to send out or to spend a little over a grand on an oven. Sending out is self explanitory. Perfect results for a bit of added time and money plus shipping costs.

Third choice the oven. I don't mind spending the $ if it's going to give me (as a complete novice) the ability to heat treat consistently and get exactly what I want. So how easy does heat treatibg become with one of these ovens? This is the most economical choice in the long run anyway. And will save time and shipping costs.

So what would you guys do? Assume that the cost of the oven didn't matter
 
coldblooded357 said:
This is the most economical choice in the long run anyway.
Click to expand...

I think you'd be surprised, especially if you get to a point where you need 10 or 20 blades HT'ed at once - and if you're looking to go full-time, you almost surely will. You might be able to do a half-dozen blades at a time in that oven.

I have a Paragon kiln but I did the math and (not including the cost of the oven itself) when I add up electricity, quenching plates and/or oil, tool wrap, a Dewar and liquid nitrogen for cryo, my time etc., I just can't beat the cost of sending them to Peters' (including shipping both ways). Plus, they Rockwell-test each blade to make sure the hardness is on target. I'm very strongly considering selling my oven; I could have had a couple hundred blades HT'ed by the pros for the $1500 it cost to order my kiln and have it shipped to me.

Time is the big factor. It usually takes 3 weeks from the day I send out a batch until they come back. When you're under a deadline or just want to finish a one-off, you will be glad to have your own kiln.

On the other hand, if you stick with simple steels you can build a good propane forge and quench tank for a couple hundred bucks. I work with mostly tool steels and stainless so that's not really an option.

ETA: I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain that you don't really "need" LN, you can get away with dry ice and acetone in an old cooler, you don't really "need" Rockwell testing, and so forth. But you're talking about going pro and wanting to be 100% sure of your HT, so that's how I'm looking at it.
 
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I think James hit it on the head.

For me, it mostly came down to time. I don't make many knives, and like to work on and pour all my attention into one knife at a time (probably has something to do with my ADD). Waiting 3 weeks to get back to a project just wasn't working for me. I also enjoy the science/engineering aspects of knifemaking, so I find it enjoyable to do the heat treat on my own and (eventually) experiment with it a bit. I purchased my kiln knowing it would be a losing investment money-wise, but I definitely feel it makes up for it in convenience and satiating my curious side.

If you're planning on going pro, you might be better off sticking with professional heat treat. You'll likely be sending off batches anyways, plus you'll be guaranteed good results so you can spend that time on the other aspects of the knives.
 
Before you write a check and buy an oven, pull out a notebook and pencil.

Put down the realistic answers to:
1)How many knives have you made in the past 12 months?
2)How many knives do you expect to make in the next twelve months?

If the total of the first two questions times $20 isn't more than $1000, an oven probably isn't needed yet.
If the total times $50 isn't $2000, it will probably never be an economical choice to get an oven.
If the answer to either question is more than 50 a year, you may be better off making knives and having a pro do the HT. Spend the money on a decent forge and more shop equipment. Once you get to 100 knives a year it is foolish to do your own HT ( as far as economics goes).

HT is a learned experience. You learn it by doing it often, repeating all steps reliably, and recording all the parameters used and the results attained. This takes time and dedication. many people are far better off to let someone else who is a real specialist do all that.

Also, seriously decide - Will I keep making knives at that rate for a longer time?
To do stainless and high alloy carbon steels you will also need - stainless foil, quench plates and quench tanks, a cryo setup, and other supplies and tools . Without a hardness tester, you can't really determine the final hardness.

If the money isn't a big deal, you have all the equipment you need for now, and you make about 20 knives a year, get an oven and have fun doing HT once a month.
 
Here's a guideline: Do it right and don't look back.

Of course, what "right" means to you is something only you can determine. If 100% confidence is what you need, then you have to get the heat treat perfect and test it afterwards. Unless you're going to invest in the tools, time and practice it takes to do that, then you put up with the delay of sending it out.
For lots of VERY respectable makers, subbing out the heat treat is "doing it right."
For most of us, it's an integral part of the fun of knifemaking.
James suggests an interesting point- for a class of steels, LN is better than subzero, and for a pro heat treater it's just another step...for me it would be a big investment for a tiny gain, so I don't do it at this time. So what's easy peasy for Bos is waaaay too much trouble for me at this time- I'd just send it out to him.
 
I'm a very new maker. I think if I had a full shop with forge, I would certainly do my own HT. Right now I'm working out of a fairly decent garage workshop. At my current speed, I'm probably averaging 3-5 knives a week (now that I got my first few shakedown knives done). I have an almost countless list of designs I want to attempt, so I've found that focusing on my designs and allowing the guys down at Tru-Grit to take care of my HT has allowed me to concentrate on developing a style and perfecting my fit and finish, instead of a couple days a week devoted to the stresses and expense of doing my own HT.

I'm very interested in branching out to San-Mai, Damascus, and forging in general, but I won't be able to do that in my current location. I feel that once I am able to set up a proper forge, I will also be able to set up proper HT alongside it.
 
The main part I shudder to think about is the three week turn around time. If I started doing high volume I could always send out some while doing some carbon steel knives in shop.

For those who use a kiln is it easy to get the results you want? When I say easy I mean you set the temp, put in steel, bell rings, remove and quench in prefered medium. Get repeatable results.
 
I think the hardness tester is very important. I do my own ht right now with a forge and pyrometer. I can't do stainless but don't have a lot of desire to either. I like to be able to work with hamon capable steels, and I need control over that process. The turnaround is problematic to me, and the local ht guys won't deal with bends or warps.
 
Do you enjoy Heattreating?If so get the oven and start learning all you can.If its not a staple for you ,then send it out.If you get the oven you should also get the tester.
Eddie
 
After doing a few carbon blades and heat treating them myself in a one brick forge so I had a decent grasp of the whole process I moved on to stainless steels because I could watch the carbon steels rust as I worked on them in my garage very near the ocean.

I have used www.buckknives.com/?event=bio.paulBos‎ even since.

It costs about $7-10.00 each with shipping if you send in about 20 or more at a time and I do all of my bevel grinding after Heat treatment.

I have a batch of profiled Hted blades of my different patterns ready to bevel grind here at the shop so I hardly ever am concerned about the appox three week wait from sending blades to HTing.

Paul Bos retired, but he does consult with the other gent named Paul that now runs the HT department at Buck knives.

The blades are Cryo treated and RC tested three times. You could not ask for a more committed and professional heat treating operation.

I have talked with both Pauls over the years and they always take the time to answer any of my questions or concerns.
 
I have been thinking about this myself. I was going to build a forge but I can send my up to 20 blades to peters for a hundred bucks. I have waffled back and forth but I think I might do 5 more knives or so then send a batch of them. I will probably build a forge eventually but this may be the way to go as I get started.
 
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