Serrations vs flesh & blood

One thing Cliff did'nt mention specifically, but certainly implied, is the PAIN suffered by a cut with a serrated blade, as opposed to the sometimes comparatively painless cut rendered with a sharp PE blade (having accidentally cut myself with both). The amount of pain inflicted should be instrumental in the time it takes to effectively disable an aggressor, IMO. Oh, and I cut myself with a Spyderedge...nasty!!:o
 
I'll have to disagree somewhat with Cougar Allen.
Yes, serrations have been tried before, but today's serrations (such as Spyderco's) combined with modern high-speed steels is something new.
Another reason that serrations were not so popular in the old days is because it is easier to make a plain-edged blade and easier to resharpen that blade. I imagine a Roman Centurian would fine it difficult to get a Spyderco Harpy very sharp with the stones he was accustomed to using.

As for which is better for fighting, plain-edged or serrated?
I have never killed anyone with a knife but I have did some test slashing and stabbing and chopping on various materials.
The conclusion I have come away with is:

If the knives are otherwise equal, the serrated blade is better in the long run.
When slashing with lots of force (using gross motor skills), only an extemely sharp plain-edge cuts as deep as a serrated-edge. And if the plain-edge hits something hard, like bone or metal, it will blunt the edge enough to affect the next slash moreso than a serrated edge.
I have noticed that once the plain-edge is blunted the blade slides across the material without cutting very deep, and sometimes not at all.
The serrated-edge continues to cut deep even when portions of it are blunted (and even when a tooth breaths off).

Just my opinion,
Allen.
 
Ease of sharpening is not important in weapons, which is why most had full parabolic grind. That's what cuts the best and there's no reason to compromise.

High speed steel is not a good choice for a weapon; the brittleness is a significant disadvantage and the superior hardness is of no use.

People who are pumped up for a fight often do not feel pain at all no matter what you do to them.

AllenC, I think in your slashing tests you were comparing to a plain edge ground at a much less acute angle than the serrated edge. Try comparing two that are ground to the same angle and finished to the same polish.
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Being able to sharpen a dull blade is very important.

And "high speed" steels like VG-10 are certainly not too brittle for slicing a person to pieces. And the greater hardness will hold an edge longer.

Keep in mind that both plain and serrated knives WILL work. If the average guy slashes you with as much forces as he can muster, it will not really matter.
 
Scary sharp serrated knives was all I carried.
At training we tested them against plain edge on dummies with clothes.

All the students had scary sharp knives and serrations hung on clothing. They got through but were slowed to varying degrees.

As an aside, those thinking the serrated knives need to be scary sharp to perform the same as plain edge should not that not many people know what scary sharp is let alone know how to get their knives to that level.

I sharpen every week at least a dozen knives for customers and have not seen anyone with scary sharp. I don't even shapren them to that level for them myself.

As I have never seen a production and hardly any customs that came through with that description[ scary sharp]. If people aren't carrying them that sharp we can't expect the level of performance to be there with serrated knives.

As Sal mentioned earlier, "A scary sharp serration is not likely to catch on anything nor is a scary sharp plain edge."

The key words are "not likely". In my opinion that leaves too much to chance to even think about serrated knives for defensive purposes.'

Brownie
 
VG-10 is not a high speed steel ... I guess you know that....

The point is edge-holding is not very important in weapons because you are unlikely to find it necessary to fight a sufficient number of people at once to dull an edge much (and if you do find it necessary you are unlikely to be successful).

Ease of sharpening is even less important because weapons so seldom needed to be sharpened. People who didn't know how to sharpen a sword themselves paid someone who did know how to do it, and the expense of that added up over a lifetime to approximately nothing.

For those of us who use a knife for other purposes frequently and might have to use that same knife to defend themselves someday, edge-holding and ease of sharpening could be important; you want that knife to be sharp at all times. If you don't use that knife for any other purpose, though, it's insignificant.
 
Hey guys before you go and help this Gris fella, you might want to look at his site, and see the type of stuff he likes to post, here is a sample
"No one was dancing in the streets of NYC on September 11."
- Nope, but during the moment in silence later, I walked away and laughed.
This was posted by Johan AKA Gris

http://www.milspy.com/Forums/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=8&st=30
 
Yes, the length of time healing isn't a significant facor in any modern combat situation, it may have indeed been a large factor in historical battles, if you consider repeated conflicts.

As for the evolution of combat blades, there are other factors to consider for example the cost and time of large scale arming. Plus are such weapons always good indicators of quality, consider the modern choices in this regard.

As well, you can find many example of primitive serrated combat weapons as well as modern ones, the Kris for example is essentially a long serrated blade. There was a thread on its uses commented on by Chas on rec.knives recently.

As well, for swords and such, serrations don't work well on any chopping motion, so any blade which relied on that to any degree would have found serrations poor.

As for the tests done by Allen, a plain edge, highly polished can skate over harder synthetic fabrics on a slash type cut, similar as to how it won't cut poly rope. However if you test the plain edge with a very rough finish the tests come out very different.

If you sharpen the plain edge really rough, say 100 grit AO, it will have a much greater slicing aggression, but still won't match the overall greater wound pattern of a serrated blade. Though I would agree with Cougar, that particular aspect isn't overly significant.

The much lower durability may be a factor though, but based on the bone cutting I have done, only metal impacts would be significant.

-Cliff
 
Wavy blades are used on some kris and were used on some European swords and daggers too. That's the only pattern that resembles serrations at all that was ever used on weapons much, and it was never very popular in any part of the world. (The popular Western idea that all kris, or even most, are wavy is wrong; most of them aren't.)
 
What you mean he's not creative? HE TRAINS AMERICAN NAVY SEALS!




:barf:


BTW, I do like this thread though. Learned a few things I will hopefully never need to know.
 
And so claims every other wannabee in the Paladin Press. It's funny. you never see an article like, "Documented rescues from Paladin."

Get a real book, like one of Jeff Cooper's and then compare.
 
Well, since we've already strayed off topic...

VG-10 not a high-speed steel?

Forgeting for the moment that "high-speed" is just a fancy way of saying "an effort for finding a better steel"...
I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to.
420 and AUS6 compared with VG-10?
I'd say the VG-10 is definitely out of their league and is certainly "high speed" when used by the knife industry.

As for sharpening...
Sharpening his weapon was something a warrior of old did regularly. Sharpening stones have been unearthed at the sites of ancient military camps and battle fields around the world.
Warriors of the ancient world were not just taught how to fight but also how to maintain their weapons and gear.
Weapons were not mass produced dime-a-dozen things to be taken for granted. They were costly and not easily replaced.
 
High speed steels are a specific group of alloys; you might run a search for details if you're interested.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top