SH-E, BM-E or ATAK?

Joined
Jan 26, 2000
Messages
13
This is probably like asking the foxes to guard the henhouse...
I've saved my pennies and I'm ready to get a big(ger) knife to broaden my collection. I've always gotten by (and will continue to) with utility knives in the 3-5 inch range. A Randall Model 23 and a KP Double Puuko see the most usage.
I guess I'm looking for someone (aren't we all) who can push me towards a Steel Heart, Battle Mistress or Mad Dog ATAK. I 've read all the literature about each, but I would love to hear someone's opinion who has used both. Especially why the INFI isn't (doesn't need to be?) selectively tempered. Pre-Thanks


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Yes I am... I have done many searches. I am (still) looking for real people's opinions. Not paid advertisements from industry insiders.

 
jralaska...welcome to the Busse Combat Forum...the Steel Heart seems to fit into the size category you would most likely be interested in....

I suspect our friends in Nuclear Toughness here at the Busse Forum can aptly describe their experiences with both knives...

I'll be watching this thread carefully, so let's keep it informative, fun, and clean.

------------------
Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa & Mastercard Accepted

Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives and Big East Traditional Bows

Professional Shooting Svcs: Corporate Training and Stress Mgmt.

Custom Variant HeadQuarters http://home.earthlink.net/~gregrnamin/andy/sharper.htm

Sharper Instinct Website www.sharperinstinct.com
 
Well I am a not easily satisfied. You could even call me a quality freak. And most knives don't impress me. Busse does. If you want the best, a knife that you will always be able to use, buy a Busse. I am not an insider and I don't care what you buy, I own three Busses they are my favorite. A Steel Heart would be a choice you will never regret. My experience. Later, Jeff
 
All three( SH, BM, and ATAK) are great knives and I can't see ya going wrong with any but if you want the one that will still be kickin years from now and still functioning like it did the day you bought it... go with a Busse. If it came down to the SH or BM I'd go with the BM but I likes em big. SH or BM is the way to go dude. You won't regret it.

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Everything is negotiable!
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/albumList?u=879893&Auth=false
 
Busse also has one of the best warrenties on the market. If you break it, they fix it. If you will do some searching in the general forum, you will find a lot of complaints on the MD warrenties. I got a SH-E on order and I am pumped. I finally get to be a partner in nuclear toughness. I would say go with Busse. Price, warrenty, and the people you deal with are a very important factor. Also, from the stories everyone tells here... the knife just can't fail. Good luck with whichever knife you choose.
 
I have owned all 3. If you are looking for a utility or camp knife go with the Busse if you want a great fighter go with a Mad Dog,just got rid of my ATAK to get a Panther and own a Battle Mistress now with a old style Steel Heart 2 coming in a few weeks.
Any of the 3 will do you fine and this is just my personal opinion.

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Carpe' Diem
Usual Suspect AKA Tattoo
 
I have used two TUSK's from Kevin McClung and a Battle Mistress from Busse Combat. Both are 10" blades fully flat ground from 1/4" stock. The Battle Mistress will in general outcut the TUSK because the edge is thinner.

McClung specs the edges on his blades at 62+ RC, at this hardness they are very brittle, they chip out easily on hard impacts and I have caused gross failures with both blades by placing lateral stress across the edges - prying in wood.

The TUSK's were also weaker than the Battle Mistress because of the steel type and the differential tempering which leaves the back soft and thus lowers the blade strength. I bent a TUSK and the same level of force left the Battle Mistress unchanged. For the same reason the tips on McClung blades are weak, check Turbers review of the ATAK vs MPK for an example.

The Battle Mistress also has superior edge retention in low stress and high stress cutting because of the higher impact toughness, ductility and wear resistance. The dual edge grind also helps.

INFI is more corrosion resistant than O1. McClung coats his blades with Hard Chrome but does not use the correct type for corrosion protection but instead uses a wear resistant type. It is just for looks as rust will form underneath it. Busse Combat uses a ceramic coating on this blades - I have no experience with it.

Both makers offer high quality Kydex work.

The grip on the TUSK is more ergonomic than the grip on the old Battle Mistress. The TUSK's grip is thicker and indexes strongly to your hand. It is also dropped relative to the blade to increase comfort and lower fatigue. McClung's grip also completely enclose the tang so their is no exposed metal parts to conduct heat or electricity. The new "E" Busse models should bring the relative performance in this area closer together.

Busse Combat offers a full warrenty, McClung changes his when he wants including after blades have been bought. Right now it has an abuse clause which means he can refuse to cover any damage if he feels you were unreasonable. You also have to buy from an official Mad Dog dealer or you are not covered - so only the original owner is warrentied.

-Cliff
 
I have several large knives. This weekend I used my Badger Attack to ATTEMPT to get a parachute out of a tree after an emergency cutaway (not mine thank god
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) After 2 1/2 hours I left the woods muttering how I wished I had my BM in the car this weekend. I like my BM more than my SH for the single reason that I can almost always use a big knife for small jobs but not the other way around. Guess what's in my car from now on? Just my opinion.
 
Let me say right away that your question has no answer. Decide your required parameters and choose accordingly.

As for the comments on the MD and Busse comparison ……. The TUSK is a fully serrated blade and thus not comparable to the BM. I would suggest that the MD Kodiak is a better comparison.

Cliff, I have read your frequent posts on the brittle edges on MD’s. I have been to MD’s shop and invited me to take any of the blades and chop his bench vise ...... Which I couldn’t do, I have a weak heart when hammering expensive blades into steel. He then proceeded to hammer away with the edge of a Panther, ATAK and I think a Kodiak (Alzheimer’s is bad today). I fully expected all edges to be serrated after that but I can assure you that the most damage was to the vise with very little damage to hair shaving edges. Make no mistake, they were damaged with impact dents but no chipping. I cannot comment on your tests but what I saw from MD dispelled any concerns I had about his blades and edge brittleness and I have bought in excess of 8 blades since May this year from MD.

Could I also beg a favor of you. Mad Dog has a name, it is Kevin, Just referring to McClung leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Good manners cost nothing so in light of the comments that Jerry has always made about other makers, I beg you to apply the same level of respect to others that you would expect from them.

Kevin has a very distinct way with words and it upsets those with weak dispositions. I managed to get over my initial aversion and I now consider him one of my friends ....of which there are few.

As for the comments on the soft back and hard edge and subsequent weakness in the blade ..... I beg to differ. The soft back allows the edge to be super hard without having the blade brittle. I am no specialist but I know tools that work well and I put the MD’s in that class.

The question of the MD chrome ..... Currently in the 3rd generation. I cannot comment on your claim about wear as opposed to corrosion but maybe you would like to clarify the basis for this assumption. I have posted before that I have had micro chips in my ATAK blade after chopping sand impregnated hard wood but I have never heard nor experienced any rust under the chrome. I also can state that my Lansky (I swear I will learn to sharpen properly soon.) removed all the chips and I had no damage to surrounding chrome. Kevin ID’ied my ATAK as around 1992 vintage and I can assure you, the claim on rust under the chrome would have shown up as this ATAK is also used for diving in the ocean.

Another issue that comes up is price. There is a distinct difference between the way Busse and Kevin makes blades. Jerry has a superb setup but not all blades are ground by him. This is not bad at all as we are all able to enjoy better delivery times but Kevin insists on doing 99% of all the work himself. I have seen him at work and he is not happy with anything less than 100%. The only steps I did not see Kevin perform was cutting of the initial Kydex, cutting the steel blanks into rough shape and machining the handle material to accept the tang….. the rest he does himself.

In no way has this affected my enjoyment of my Busse’s. I bought my first Busse when they were still rather unknown and if I had the same insight into shares, I would be very rich by now.

From Africa
 
I guess first thing I have to say is that I
have no intention to start anything remotely resembling a flame or bash anyone.
I was doing my research on Busse and MD knives for a long time, not from the MD vs Busse point tough. I've read quite a few megabytes of the info. Currently, a result is that I've got 2 busse blades already, since I was very happy with them, few more are pending, now
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. No MDs though. Well, it's never late
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, but anyways, I have a couple of questions to ask:

Originally posted by Aubrey:
Cliff, I have read your frequent posts on the brittle edges on MD’s... He then proceeded to hammer away with the edge of a Panther, ATAK and I think a Kodiak ...
Ok, however earlier ih the following thread http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003933.html your message said:
The MD edge is brittle and Kevin, you can preach all you want but I have chipped a few blades
I was interested, what blades were those chipped ones, except TUSK?
How did the blades chip?
Did MD changed/improved his knife making process somehow to eliminate chipping prob which you have met?
& the last, how would you compare MD handles with Busse E handles?
Your input would be interesting, since unlike me for example, you use your knves in quite tough conditions I guess
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[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 07-25-2000).]
 
No sweat about the flame war. We are all adults and have our off days. The others will keep us in line around here. I think what it boils down to is respect for others.

Busse and MD blades are rated as top by various people and both have their followers. I would say that Busse is more heavy duty survival/tactical with MD the other way around .......your choice.

I am not a fancy person but I limit my comments to my experience after using the blades in a real world situation. I don't sit down and device tests to see what I can do and what I can break.... I just use them and use them hard. NBothing wrong with test as it does keep the makers on their toes but some of the tests borders on insanity.

I did state in my previous post that I have chipped the edge on my ATAK. The wood is called Iron wood (does that say enough) and I picked that up in a dry river bed. To put this in perspective, the normal procedure is to hit ironwood with a hammer to break it and not with an axe. I have broken a forged Swedish axe trying to chop it..... rolled the edge and broke the handle.

The damage on the ATAK was limited to small chips on the edge and this was most likely due to sand in/on the wood. When I say small .... kind you can feel with a nail on the edge ...yes, I am paranoid.

At that stage I was upset because of this but to be honest, I doubt if I should have used the knife in any case ...but it was at hand. My fear at that stage was that the rest of the blade would display the same results and I tried to find out if I should be worried. Initially I got little joy from Kevin but after both calmed down, I did have a discussion with Kevin, followed by a visit and I am now satisfied that the tools are fit for purpose.

Overall, the edge profile of the MD's are much slimmer than those on my Busse's. My Busse's have also stood up well to hard chopping and trying to repair the axe I broke on the wood, I did hit the axe head a few times. The result was not chips in the edge but rather deformations.

Let me say that the MD's are not for everyone, just like the Busse's. Both are specialized tools that are really pushing the limits of what the steel and profile can do ........ Busse is built like a tank and the result is a blade that will take any and all kinds of abuse because of the inherent over design and excellent steel used.

Analyse your needs ...and I did mine. My blades have an easy time 99% of the time with duties such as preparing food, cutting rope and very little true abuse.

On my recent hunt, Kevin rammed a Pack Rat (5 inch blade, 3/16 steel and also 62 Rc edge on the edge) into the rock beneath the Kudu .... http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=915725&a=7200175&p=24435834 as he was cutting the throat. I can vouch for the fact that it was a hard hit and I expected severe point damage .......fantasies of snapping of 1/2 inch of blade and such. The damage was minimal and 1/24 of the point was gone, Kevin repaired that in about 5 minutes on a diamond steel. Now looking at the claim of brittle ..... to say the least, I would not consider this an issue.

I note you already have Busse's so I cannot fault your logic. Either one would have worked well but the final choice is yours .....

From Africa
 
I don't intend to claim on the quality or intensions of either knife and their makers. But the Question still stands Aubrey. How good is Kevin's warranty. If I were to buy an ATAK and broke it... what would he do about it? I know what Jerry would do. But what about Kevin? I won't use a knife that isn't warrantied like Jerry's are. I'd be afraid I'd break it. And then you're just out a lot of money. I don't doubt that MD wants their name to be recognized as the finest knives in the industry. What maker doesn't. But the finest knives in the industry IMHO state in their warranty good for this life and the next garaunteed. Does MD say anything similar... as I don't know. And guys lets keep it friendly in here. Andy has enough headaches with out a bunch of junk getting started in here over the value of torture tests versus real world tasks.

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Everything is negotiable!
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/albumList?u=879893&Auth=false
 
Aubrey, the TUSK is available in various formats, fully serrated, plain edged or partial. The first one I had was fully serrated, the second had a couple of inches of serrations at the base of the blade. As for a comparision, it is nearly identical to the Battle Mistress in blade profile, thickness, width and tip geometry.

As for the vise chopping, they are usually cast iron not steel and that is only slightly more stressful than Rob Simonich's coin cutting. The metal in that is far softer than blade steel. The fact that McClung uses this to promote the durability of his blades doesn't surprise me. But the fact remains that even if he did demonstrate that his blades were durable it makes no difference because he will not guarantee any performance claims.

There is a huge difference in how McClung and Busse handle problems with their knives. When there was a thread on the Hoodlums forum about someone denting the edge of a BM on a bone, Busse immediately posted that should not happen, the blade was covered and to return it for inspection. When Turber chipped out an ATAK, MD would not comment in the thread but instead commented in email when questioned that Turber was using a "fake ATAK" and that it would not be covered even though it was bought from an official dealer. When the second TUSK I had failed I asked MD if it was covered, he wouldn't say but just said to return the blade for inspection. When he eventually got around to making a decision (months after he recieved the blade) and informed me that he would not be replacing it or offering a refund he kept the blade and has refused to return it.

Many people have commented on the edge durability issue as well, it is hardly something that just I have noted. Ron Hood has noted that two of his students chipped out McClung's blades doing normal camping chores. Will Kwan chipped out an ATAK twisting the edge in wood and I think chopping into soft iron. Turber chipped out an ATAK on spruce. There are many other such comments in the many threads and I have recieved more besides this in email.

Differential tempering does make a blade weaker than a fully hardened one. When you soften steel you weaken it. This is why Turber easily bent the tip of his ATAK and why it would not return from a very slight flex. However it does make it tougher as well, but again this makes no difference in McClung's blades because anything that would require this level of toughness (very hard impacts on the spine of force enough to dent it) he considers abusive and voids the warrenty.

If you want details on Hard Chrome and corrosion resistance read the comments by Cobalt in the old threads he explained in some detail how McClung uses a form that gives high wear resistance but little corrosion resistance.

As for McClungs straightforward approach, that is not the reason that many people don't have a positive opinion of him. It is something that I actually respect. However he has many other character traits I do not. A discussion of these however does not belong here and is no relevance to a discussion of the blades anyway.

Concerning me referring to Kevin "Mad Dog" Mcclung by his last name, I am not on a first name basis with him and it is a sign of respect. If however he was participating in a thread I would refer to him as Kevin. That is simply custome. These things will change from location to location of course.

-Cliff
 
Aubrey...just tellin' you now that when I come to Africa next year, I'm doin' it with a bow....much more up close and personal
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AND....maybe I'll use a broadhead from INFI if I can get Jerry to make one
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It will kill and clean the game in one pass...no knives needed.
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Anyway all, just a word of thanks and encouragement to continue to keep this discussion controlled and appropriate.

------------------
Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa & Mastercard Accepted

Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives and Big East Traditional Bows

Professional Shooting Svcs: Corporate Training and Stress Mgmt.

Custom Variant HeadQuarters http://home.earthlink.net/~gregrnamin/andy/sharper.htm

Sharper Instinct Website www.sharperinstinct.com
 
Gentlemen,
I appreciate all the replies my original question has generated. When I'm going to spend $300+ for a knife (don't tell my wife) I'm not comfortable getting only the maker's opinion on his product. I have a solid set of criteria that I use in selecting my knives, but I'm very appreciative of guys like Cliff and Aubrey who push the boundaries of performance (there is much to be learned from "unreasonable" testing)and report on it for the benefit of us all.

Thanks again for the participation, and Cliff, you deserve an A+ on that doctoral thesis you wrote on the Battle Mistress.
 
Jeez Aubry, was it something you said?

Mr. Stamps,...while I would be remiss to comment upon the well structured and unbiased clinical trials you perform on various knives, obviously for our benefit, I must take issue with your insistence in refering to the proprietor of Mad Dog Knives as "McClung". It is true that few of us are on a first name basis with him, however, the absence of a "Mr" before his name suggests the very lack of respect where you have asserted it. Perhaps I have misread your post, or at least misunderstood the intent of your last statement; be that as it may, and in spite of the casually friendly atmosphere promoted in these forums( I have, as many do, refered to you as "Cliff" although we have never been introduced) I will continue to enjoy your informative posts on the behalf of the kife loving masses, despite your lack of decorum.
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Cordially,

Screwtape
 
Originally posted by Uncle Screwtape:
the absence of a "Mr" before his name suggests the very lack of respect where you have asserted it
Depends
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For example, when Aubrey says "Busse" you don't think that "the absence of a "Mr" before his name suggests the very lack of respect" to Mr. Busse, right?

IMHO Mr makes things too official & less friendly? Pardon if I am mistaken, didn't mean any disrespect...


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