sharp knife correlation (possibly)

[HSC ///]

I decided to do some testing of my knife products.
I want my knives to be used and need to know they will perform.
So I thought to myself, I want to know how other knives in the market that are comparable and well regarded, perform, so I'll test them first as my "Standard".
This wasn't going to be well thought out or planned, I didn't need to isolate variables and write a dissertation.
And because there are so many variables, I just want to keep it simple, either it cuts or is doesn't.
But cut what?, I mean I didn't want to do parlor tricks or stab a tank.
I want to replicate practical use of a an outdoor field utility knife.
I should be able to receive a knife and simply put it to use IMO.

So I went off and purchased 6 knives from well-known makers, 2 are MS. 1 is highly regarded and very difficult to get one of his knives, 1 has a 4 yr waitlist.
All fall under the umbrella of outdoor field utility knife or at least hunter class.

So I got my 5/8" manila rope, cardboard, was going to cut some vine branches in my backyard, this sort of thing.
I started last night and was surprised right away and so hence my post now.
First here are the knives -

I know in some testing, the tester equalized by sharpening them all to 15 DPS or whatever common factor.
I used them all straight "out of the box", no assembly required, no sharpening or honing.
After all, one of the knives paperwork says - "This knife is sharp and ready for it's intended use" Another one the maker says he puts on a working edge.
I mean these are knives right? They should be plug and play, ready to go?
The only "pretest" I did was to see if they could slice paper, and see if they could push cut paper.
3 could push cut, 3 could not

Initial results - The 3 that could push cut paper all cut well thru the manila rope (very abrasive and tough) and through wood.
The 3 that could not push cut paper performed poorly, in fact one was a major fail. The apex must have been so flat it was shocking how it could not cut.
Poorly means that I had to saw back and forth repeatedly down to rope to make it through. One of them would not even bite the rope and skated off the surface twice.
You knew immediately when a knife was cutting through properly and you knew immediately when a knife was simply not sharp.

So question to makers, do you test your knives before shipping out or have some common test you use?
Is there a correlation between ability to push cut paper and being an good overall performer (for it's intended use)? <- just added that last part

Today I will sharpen the 3 that didn't do well and give the heavy vine branches a trimming.

I captured video of them all and here are some screen prints.

 

[john april]

wow, that was some expensive research hats off to you. i bought 2 loveless knives to see how they were actually built. pictures were not enough. i think you were wise to use them as they came, just like the customer would. i do not test every knife now, i used to test most of them, especially the large ones. i cannot recall how many times i have a chopped a 2x4 in half twice with a 4 inch blade lol. its great excercise.

 

[Shipshores]

This is something I been wanting to do but can't afford to buy the knives. I would like to have a reference to compare how my own knives are performing. Looking forward to following this.

 

[TonyRV2]

I would say that a push test is a fair evaluation of a knife's edge straight out of the box, although the sharpest knife may not necessarily be the highest quality knife, or even the best knife for a particular job. For instance, one maker may bevel his knives at 5 degrees (each side) which would potentially create an edge that would be considered sharper than a maker that bevels at 20 degrees. It really comes down to what the knife is going to be used for. In my opinion, a camp knife, or hunting knife should not have small degree bevel. The smaller the angle is, the more that knife is prone to wearing out the edge. Also, low angle bevels are usually reserved for slicing through softer materials which somewhat negates the wear problem. Think of a butcher's knife for instance. A camp knife on the other hand might be used for chopping through wood. A small bevel would wear out quickly in this application. Same may be true of hunting knives if the user plans on chopping through bone for instance. There is a way to somewhat offset wear issues by choosing materials that result in higher edge hardness, but there are always tradeoffs. The harder a knife blade is, the less ductile it is, which means that harder materials are more brittle than softer materials.

Bottom line is that while I agree that the push test is a good indication of sharpness right out of the box, it does not necessarily correlate to being the best quality nor the best knife for the job at hand.

 

[HSC ///]

wow, that was some expensive research hats off to you. i bought 2 loveless knives to see how they were actually built. pictures were not enough. i think you were wise to use them as they came, just like the customer would. i do not test every knife now, i used to test most of them, especially the large ones. i cannot recall how many times i have a chopped a 2x4 in half twice with a 4 inch blade lol. its great excercise.

thanks, I used to have a pretty nice collection of folders before I got into knifemaking, but I sold some knives recently and decided to put the money back in to the business , so to speak.

I would say that a push test is a fair evaluation of a knife's edge straight out of the box, although the sharpest knife may not necessarily be the highest quality knife, or even the best knife for a particular job. For instance, one maker may bevel his knives at 5 degrees (each side) which would potentially create an edge that would be considered sharper than a maker that bevels at 20 degrees. It really comes down to what the knife is going to be used for. In my opinion, a camp knife, or hunting knife should not have small degree bevel. The smaller the angle is, the more that knife is prone to wearing out the edge. Also, low angle bevels are usually reserved for slicing through softer materials which somewhat negates the wear problem. Think of a butcher's knife for instance. A camp knife on the other hand might be used for chopping through wood. A small bevel would wear out quickly in this application. Same may be true of hunting knives if the user plans on chopping through bone for instance. There is a way to somewhat offset wear issues by choosing materials that result in higher edge hardness, but there are always tradeoffs. The harder a knife blade is, the less ductile it is, which means that harder materials are more brittle than softer materials.

Bottom line is that while I agree that the push test is a good indication of sharpness right out of the box, it does not necessarily correlate to being the best quality nor the best knife for the job at hand.

good points, I revised my question to - "Is there a correlation between ability to push cut paper and being an good overall performer (for it's intended use)? <- just added that last part"
but remember I did constrain my testing to the range of outdoor utility etc. so they don't all have the same geometries but the purpose should be the same.

 

[Fish30114]

I like your approach, and will be interested to read the rest of what happened. I think your 'plug and play' analogy is spot on, and I also will use some of this info in how and what the final edge on my blades is.

Good on ya!!

 

[coldsteelburns]

Hope this isn't inappropriate to ask, but who is the maker of the top left knife with blacked out blade and scalloped scales?

I wouldn't have asked, but it's already obvious to a lot of us here who all of these knives are made by and since it doesn't seem like you're trying to hide the identities of the makers or the makers marks, I figure it can't hurt. That's the only knife I can't identify the maker of though. I know I've seen that style here, but forget who makes it, so it's kind of buggin me lol

I'm really looking forward to this as well, I always enjoy your threads. :thumbup:

~Paul

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My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Winkler - I think.

Hope this isn't inappropriate to ask, but who is the maker of the top left knife with blacked out blade and scalloped scales?

I wouldn't have asked, but it's already obvious to a lot of us here who all of these knives are made by and since it doesn't seem like you're trying to hide the identities of the makers or the makers marks, I figure it can't hurt. That's the only knife I can't identify the maker of though. I know I've seen that style here, but forget who makes it, so it's kind of buggin me lol

I'm really looking forward to this as well, I always enjoy your threads. :thumbup:

~Paul

---

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)

 

[HSC ///]

Winkler - I think.

Correct

 

[Drew Riley]

It boggles my mind how a maker can ship out a knife that isn't sharp/can't cut paper. I always kind of felt like knowing how to sharpen a knife was almost a prerequisite to making a knife. More often than not you can just look at an edge and tell whether it can cut or not, and making one or two quick slices through a piece of paper gives you a pretty accurate idea of how it might perform in other roles.

I don't necessarily thing paper cuts or hair shaving is the be all / end all of tests, but it will very quickly tell you if your knife isn't sharp.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Wow OP, kudo on your committed on a quest of finding excellency - or establish a baseline to compare with your offering products!

It's reasonable to correlate OOB sharpness to maker's envision of intended usage and cutting technique. If you buy a $500 knife - very thin blade + thin edge geometry + sub micron apex, probably the maker would hope/like the user not to cross grain baton knotty hardwoods or split thick bones. Slicer/scalpel vs maul geometry speaking.

otoh, no general correlation can/should be make, otherwise that would akin to a hammer sees all cutting tasks as nails. Makers/manufacturers (with some market & field researchs - maybe ) can project what a best OOB sharpness for intended use (and techniques on the bulk part of a bell curve), where longevity may takes higher precedence than initial cutting efficiency.

Edge keenness (bar from deformation and damage) falls off at the rate similar to this function - depend on usages+steel composition+ht

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/En-Function.html

So, makers might choose a sensible OOB working sharpness (says, X between 1 & 2).

 

[HSC ///]

It boggles my mind how a maker can ship out a knife that isn't sharp/can't cut paper. I always kind of felt like knowing how to sharpen a knife was almost a prerequisite to making a knife. More often than not you can just look at an edge and tell whether it can cut or not, and making one or two quick slices through a piece of paper gives you a pretty accurate idea of how it might perform in other roles.

I don't necessarily thing paper cuts or hair shaving is the be all / end all of tests, but it will very quickly tell you if your knife isn't sharp.

Andrew, to clarify, they all cut paper, making a diagonal slice across paper, but only 3 push cut paper, a downward push stroke.
I'm wondering if reaching the point of being able to push cut paper is a good measure of cutting performance.

Wow OP, kudo on your committed on a quest of finding excellency - or establish a baseline to compare with your offering products!

It's reasonable to correlate OOB sharpness to maker's envision of intended usage and cutting technique. If you buy a $500 knife - very thin blade + thin edge geometry + sub micron apex, probably the maker would hope/like the user not to cross grain baton knotty hardwoods or split thick bones. Slicer/scalpel vs maul geometry speaking.

otoh, no general correlation can/should be make, otherwise that would akin to a hammer sees all cutting tasks as nails. Makers/manufacturers (with some market & field researchs - maybe ) can project what a best OOB sharpness for intended use (and techniques on the bulk part of a bell curve), where longevity may takes higher precedence than initial cutting efficiency.

Edge keenness (bar from deformation and damage) falls off at the rate similar to this function - depend on usages+steel composition+ht
View attachment 637307
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/En-Function.html

So, makers might choose a sensible OOB working sharpness (says, X between 1 & 2).

ok fair enough and agreed on the hammer analogy. But I'm cutting some manila rope to get started.
Isn't that a reasonable cutting task for a utility knife straight out of the box?
I don't want to share the videos and say which 3 etc, I don't want to embarrass or create hard feelings.
But it was quite shocking when they simply would not cut through the rope one time without significant effort and a repeated sawing motion.

Also you listed a few specifics (about knifemaking) I was purposely ignoring. A knife should cut, plain and simple.
I believe I chose the right knives for the right task (for my testing purposes)

 

[wdtorque]

Good stuff. I'd like to know specifics , but understand your reluctance to name names or makers results . I'd probably post them though. If someone sold me a custom and it wouldn't cut, shame on them. Dozier


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Danke42]

I guess all you can do re the 3 duds is share your tests back with the all the makers and see if they want to respond or see the knife back.

3 out of 6 being sub par does create enough doubt to put shade on all 6.

 

[HSC ///]

I guess all you can do re the 3 duds is share your tests back with the all the makers and see if they want to respond or see the knife back.

3 out of 6 being sub par does create enough doubt to put shade on all 6.

I've already sharpened all three and am moving on. The three duds are all accomplished and busy makers and I suspect the knives just sit and don't get used by customers.

 

[Danke42]

It's possible they're meant to be safe queens. But it's also possible that being they are small busy guys something didn't get checked before it shipped.

You know what they say about assume.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

*blunt I am*

This assessment should best be done by a neutral competence party. Since your interest is at stake, plus professional courtesy warrant keep finding, about other makers products, private (or very selective/restricted disclosure). I actually agree with your view about OOB sharpness; keep in mind sharpening is an acquired skill. There are always something to learn in MTE subforum.

I selectively posted results of my own stuff (also a neat way to store some research data). Goods along with craps - an open platform for everyone feedbacks (constructive and shot-down):thumbup: . e.g.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...chopping-impact-tests?p=16105477#post16105477

I/we sure like to learn about white#1 steel (along with other steels you are using) capability. Please share your stuff. Too bad, I can't get any w/o being MC buddy or maybe I could smuggle some from Japan - heheh.

 

[Matt River]

I have several axes that can shave hair off my arm after cutting for an hour, old Keen Kutter and Collins. If a top end knife cannot cut rope out of a box there is something really wrong about that. As a maker of many different things I am offended, and disturbed. No matter the intended purpose a knife should cut rope easily. Feeling a bit angry, nothing more to say without being offensive.

 

[HSC ///]

*blunt I am*

This assessment should best be done by a neutral competence party. Since your interest is at stake

I/we sure like to learn about white#1 steel (along with other steels you are using) capability. Please share your stuff. Too bad, I can't get any w/o being MC buddy or maybe I could smuggle some from Japan - heheh.

Agreed and I already offered up my knife to a tester and it's going to another one tomorrow.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Handforged-Utility-Hunter-review-(white-steel!)

 

[Gaston444]

Randalls are always delivered basically with barely any edge bevel, and are essentially unsharpened, so testing their out of the box sharpness is rather pointless...

The same goes with Liles, and I attribute to this initial hand-applied dullness their superior edge cohesion later on, when they are sharpened "cold" by the owner, which is always presumed to be done by hand...

My experience with the four Randalls I have owned (and my two Liles) is that out of the box their edges are all basically junk, and yet the Randalls are the sharpest around in edge thickness (0.020" for Randalls, one of my two Liles being twice as thick, unfortunately)...

What really matters for true sharpness potential is edge shoulder thickness, or the equivalent on a convex edge: 0.020" edge shoulders on large knives is usually good enough for chopping, yet can also slice. Most large knives are twice as thick, which doesn't affect chopping all that much, but makes them very poor slicers.

The very thing that makes Randalls so superior is the fact that they are initially dull, because of the quick hand-applied edge... Although the initial bevel is poor, being very open, all-important is that it is applied by hand at the factory: NOT with power tools, so the edge apex you put in later is not ruined by a power tool being applied to the apex: This on many knives ruins apex cohesion until a few sharpenings have moved the apex under the power-affected metal.

I used to be skeptical of this, but not anymore...

Some knives are affected so deep by power tool grinding that no amount of sharpening will move them out of the poor apex cohesion zone... This is why Randalls are quite deliberately delivered dull, and it works, if you sharpen them by hand...

To test a Randall's sharpness out of the box is to not understand the purpose behind the way it is made...: It would take the maker far too much time to apply a fine edge by hand: That would be absurd... The extra-thin edge thickness makes applying an edge easy for the customer, exactly as it should be.

That being said, I've heard some Randalls come out fairly sharp from the factory, but I'm sure I would not agree...

Gaston