sharp knife correlation (possibly)

[HSC ///]

Well I put an edge on the 3 dull ones and they all cut the rope fine. Although I feel the 3 that did cut initially still cut better. It was also interesting for me to have to put an edge on different blade materials than I am accustomed to working with. So then I went outside to trim the Ivy branches. Using mostly rosebud cuts. At this point I learned how important thumb placement and comfort is in cutting.

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[Lo/Rez]

Before I started making knives I started doing tests from different makers with different steels. I standardized the tests for consistency and to get a base line for performance. All knives were sharpened on the Wicked Edge prior to the tests. For testing different types of steels I think this was a good exercise. Some day I will have time to make similar knives with different steels using similar heat treat Rc targets to get a real feel for the performance of the different steels. Link to the channel where the different tests are if anyone is interested. https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCMxAqztt2fu-I9ZJRrp-6mQ.

 

[HSC ///]

Randalls are always delivered basically with barely any edge bevel, and are essentially unsharpened, so testing their out of the box sharpness is rather pointless...

Gaston

yes, so it seems that way,
I guess I was really surprised when I read this on the paperwork - "This knife is sharp and ready for it's intended use"
But it sure cut nice after sharpening

when I'm all done testing I was going to sell these all as "safe queens".. LOL
but the Randall I might keep

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Harbeer,
My personal test for edge sharpness of my custom knives is, Drum roll please...............................

How well do they cut tomatoes on a cutting board! Da Duh!
Yep, Its that simple.

When you purchased a knife a hundred plus years ago they almost never had an edge on them.
Depending on your craft or need, you ether put the kind of edge you wanted on yourself, or took it to someone like me and others here that focus on sharpening outside of their own knives.

Many times people will bring knives to me like today, at the Brentwood farmer's market and want me to sharpen some kitchen knife they say they just purchased and complain that it isn't sharp and when they hear $10.00 for a 9" knife, They say, Well I only paid $40.00 for the knife!
I smile and say, Now you know why!

A quality sharpening job, takes time, effort and most importantly, knowledge!

So, I commend you on your testing and am interested to hear your results!

 

[Matt River]

Utility and working knives 100 years ago did indeed come without an edge. However then as now top end cutlery should have a proper edge, especially if claimed.

I also test on tomatoes, grow tomatoes and cukes in hoops, sell at farm market as well as sharpening at market. Maybe I am just a bit weird about edges, sharpen things to calm down, compulsive behaviour.

 

[HSC ///]

thanks for the comments all,
As far as test results.. there are none.
This testing is for my knowledge and purposes and meaningful to me only.
There is no ranking or empirical measurements or edge retention testing.

One thing I did learn is that the importance of proper thumb ramp size and amount of jimping detail


regards

 

[wdtorque]

Thumb ramp and jimping?
Do tell? Dozier


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[Augus7us]

To test a Randall's sharpness out of the box is to not understand the purpose behind the way it is made...: It would take the maker far too much time to apply a fine edge by hand: That would be absurd... The extra-thin edge thickness makes applying an edge easy for the customer, exactly as it should be.

Gaston

Does Randall advertise or note anywhere that their knives do not come with an edge? If so then I understand what you are saying, if not then I can't see how you can justify that. A knife's primary purpose is to cut. I've seen chef's knives from high end makers with no edge but they are very clearly advertised as such.

In this case Harbeer bought field/utility knives. I would go so far as to say most if not everyone who buys a field knife expects it to cut out of the box. Any high end maker I have spoken to puts as keen an edge as geometry allows on every knife, even if they know their knife is going straight into a safe.

I just had a discussion with Kevin Cashen about something similar a few weeks ago. The subject of guys passing their JS or MS with exquisite knives only to sell knives that looked like Walmart specials with JS/MS stamps came up. That kind of stuff along with selling utility knives that can't cut rope just reflects poorly on the custom knife making community and frankly is an embarrassment.

It is already difficult convincing someone that has never owned a custom knife to fork over several times more money for a custom over a box store knife. Folks like that who do step out on a limb to buy what they rightfully expect should be much better only to find it won't cut a piece of rope may never buy another custom knife again.

Kudos to the three that actually cut like a proper knife, and to me a field knife should cut rope out of the box. What kind of field knife has geometry that can't cut rope? An axe knife? Seriously...

I'm going to take a guess and say that Nathan's was one of them that performed well. Too bad his are designed for cutting nails and concrete blocks

-Clint

 

[HSC ///]

Thumb ramp and jimping?
Do tell? Dozier


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I don't have anything definitive other than to say the design is important. Some thumb ramps hurt....some are more comfortable

 

[wdtorque]

Does Randall advertise or note anywhere that their knives do not come with an edge? If so then I understand what you are saying, if not then I can't see how you can justify that. A knife's primary purpose is to cut. I've seen chef's knives from high end makers with no edge but they are very clearly advertised as such.

In this case Harbeer bought field/utility knives. I would go so far as to say most if not everyone who buys a field knife expects it to cut out of the box. Any high end maker I have spoken to puts as keen an edge as geometry allows on every knife, even if they know their knife is going straight into a safe.

I just had a discussion with Kevin Cashen about something similar a few weeks ago. The subject of guys passing their JS or MS with exquisite knives only to sell knives that looked like Walmart specials with JS/MS stamps came up. That kind of stuff along with selling utility knives that can't cut rope just reflects poorly on the custom knife making community and frankly is an embarrassment.

It is already difficult convincing someone that has never owned a Kudos to the three that actually cut like a proper knife, and to me a field knife should cut rope out of the box. What kind of field knife has geometry that can't cut rope? An axe knife? Seriously...

I'm going to take a guess and say that Nathan's was one of them that performed well. Too bad his are designed for cutting nails and concrete blocks

-Clint

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[wdtorque]

I'm going to take a guess and say that Nathan's was one of them that performed well. Too bad his are designed for cutting nails and concrete blocks

-Clint[/QUOTE]

Really? I've used one of Nathan's As my shop knife for a year or so. Sucker will cut anything fed to it.
I'm wondering what won't cut? Dozier


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[HSC ///]

I'm going to take a guess and say that Nathan's was one of them that performed well. Too bad his are designed for cutting nails and concrete blocks

-Clint

Indeed u guessed correctly. Too bad because I'm not really a fan of the design but there's no question it cuts. I do need to spend more time on it with wood however. Not sure it moves through wood well. It's quite thick and appears obtuse.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

I think it depends in what sense you mean correlation. If you mean the purely statistical sense, you are looking at correlation and causation.

The test for determining causation is called the PDF, or possibleven confounding factors. Try to think of something that could connect the two things you are looking at to see if they are causationall.

In this case, push cutting abilty and knife quality. I can think of edge geometry as something that would effect both. I could also think of owning a lanky or wicked edge sharpening system. Both of these break the causational link, so without a randomiced test we can't determine if one caused the other "for certain"

What we have to rely on is correlation. How connected are they. Are knives that arrive able to push cut out preforming other knives long after the initial edge is gone? Is the kind of maker who puts a razor edge on his knives the same one who works to produce a geometrically and metallurgical support blade? I think only time "and a repeatable test" will tell.

 

[Justice4all]

As a new maker, I test all my blades and my customers know it. I've started posting videos of some of my tests and have done demonstrations in front of customers and potentials. The cut hair/paper with push cuts, chop some wood and then repeat the hair/paper stuff really blows peoples minds. Production style folders and fixed make my blades look awesome by comparison. LOL

I have found that 99 percent of my customers want a couple simple things. One, they don't want to have to sharpen the blade if possible. Sounds funny, but every single time I offer to do re-sharps and re-furbs, they have all jumped at the option. I have also found that the very experienced outdoorsman I'm selling to don't really know how to properly sharpen a blade. Most don't have time, at least around here, what with owning business's, having large families and all the church responsibilities. Second, they don't want to have to work too hard at maintaining the blade (hence the stainless). These are not lazy people, just the opposite.

These are foreign ways of thought to me, but I know my customer base and have planned for it accordingly.

Personally I would find it extremely odd to either sell or buy an edged device without a good edge. If I were to buy a well known, high end blade, I would expect it to act like a light saber... LOL. But seriously, isn't that the expectation of most people that are purchasing these high end blades?

Most of my customers are going to use my blades for everything from cutting up animals to construction site work. I try to cover all the bases in my designs which isn't easy. One I just delivered today was originally made to work on Elk sized animals. The user immediately put it to use cutting sod... Ouch. His knife, he can do whatever he wants with it. If it holds up, then I look that much better as a maker.

Speaking of thumb rests, I've put a lot of time and thought into mine to be comfortable and help apply more pressure to the work being done. Makes production much harder though.

 

[Natlek]

I think it depends in what sense you mean correlation. If you mean the purely statistical sense, you are looking at correlation and causation.

The test for determining causation is called the PDF, or possibleven confounding factors. Try to think of something that could connect the two things you are looking at to see if they are causationall.

In this case, push cutting abilty and knife quality. I can think of edge geometry as something that would effect both. I could also think of owning a lanky or wicked edge sharpening system. Both of these break the causational link, so without a randomiced test we can't determine if one caused the other "for certain"

What we have to rely on is correlation. How connected are they. Are knives that arrive able to push cut out preforming other knives long after the initial edge is gone? Is the kind of maker who puts a razor edge on his knives the same one who works to produce a geometrically and metallurgical support blade? I think only time "and a repeatable test" will tell.

Comparison of various steel with different geometry and different purpose of the blade is the same as we compare steel , titanium , aluminum and carbon tube all the same thickness

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I also agree that "out of the box" isn't going to be an apples to apples test. Soma makers may strop and hone the edge to a hair splitting edge, while others may put on a working edge. A working edge is one that is sharp enough to cut things, but designed to allow the user to re-sharpen at his desired angle. It is usually in the middle of the normal edge angle range for that knife style. This allows the edge to be increased or decreased with negligible effect on the blades edge thickness.

I put a working edge on most field knives. That is a 400 grit belt sharpened edge at around 15-20 DPS. It will cut paper, but is just a basic edge. The purchaser is encouraged to re-sharpen the knife on his equipment at his desired angle. This will allow him to get repeatable results and the edge he prefers.

On kitchen knives for professional chefs, I do the same at around 10 DPS, as almost every one will immediately sharpen the knife to his desired edge type before use.

 

[JG Custom Metal Works]

If I was one of the makers who had a knife in the group, and it wasn't made clear that my knife wasn't one of the ones that didn't have a good edge, I'd be a little annoyed. I obsess over knives before I send them out and to be lumped in with blades that have problems cutting rope wouldn't make me real happy. I know at least one of the other makers in that group takes the quality of his work very seriously.

I'm not saying you're saying something bad about one of the makers who had a great edge. It's just that you're not NOT saying something bad about them either. If you're gonna put names in the spotlight, ya kind of got to go full bore with it. Personally, if this was something I thought was worth making a point about(I don't), I'd do it without mentioning names. I mean, I guess I don't really understand the need for it. Unless you're calling someone out, and then that should be done between the customer and maker.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

There is a new bakery that has opened locally, they offer hand made cheese danish and other sweet pastries for sale. A single cheese danish cost 3.00. My wife and I treat ourselves to these wonderfully made treats on occasion. Seeing as how they are at a premium price, we expect them to be excellent, top notch, melt in your mouth.
After coming from having our taxes done, we decided to stop and treat ourselves. I ordered the cheese danish, Deb ordered the cherry. We took them home and ate them with fresh coffee.
Deb said the cherry danish was melt in your mouth, the cheese danish, on the other hand was as stale as bread left out on the table, over night, as you do when making stuffing.
We live in a fairly remote area of SE Ohio where we all know each other, kind of like the knife community. My first thought was to tell any and all that I had bought a 3 dollar stale cheese danish from our new bakery. Because this is a close nit community, a negative comment from me could affect their bottom line. So what to do.
In the end, I thought I did not have all the data. I had no idea how this came about, why my danish was stale. It could have easily been an innocent mistake. A mishap.

So I decided instead of telling local people I had purchased a stale 3 dollar danish from our local bakery, I made my comments to the bakery owner in private. She told me that somehow a box of out of date treats had gotten mixed up with the freshly made pastries and they had changed how they were handled so this would not happen again. She refunded my money and gave me a free and fresh cheese danish.

It is easy to ruin someones reputation with offhand negative comments. In this case I am glad I garnered all pertinent information before taking any action.

Try the cheese danish, they're great, Fred

 

[HSC ///]

I don't think anyone here is trying to ruin reputations.
I think the purpose here is to gather knowledge and information and come to a better understanding.

I asked - "So question to makers, do you test your knives before shipping out or have some common test you use?
Is there a correlation between ability to push cut paper and being an good overall performer (for it's intended use)?"

It's true I did not need to show a pic of the knives, but my intention was to add clarity, not create a storm.

thanks to all those who weighed in and contributed. I see many various points of view and understand that we all share a common passion.

regards

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I think it's important for any new maker to acquire samples of other experienced maker's work to compare their own work to. Real world knife testing doesn't generate a number like a Rockwell hardness test, it's comparative by nature and you need good "standards" to compare against. That and a magnifying glass and some good light will tell you a lot about where you're at as a maker, and I think that's really important.

Also, in my opinion there's nothing wrong with buying other maker's work and comparing them publicly without prior "consent". If someone were to do that with a different product, say a car for instance, they'd be a typical car magazine. As one of the maker's here, I'm perfectly fine with anything you want to say or do, and even if I weren't, so what? They're your property.

That said, if you're going to publicly compare different maker's work you do have the responsibility to do it competently. For example, you wouldn't want to unknowingly skew something by regrinding the original edge and introduce heat that affects the heat treat at the edge. <--- this is easier to do than most people realize

Beyond that caveat, it's my personal opinion that it's all fair game! If you want to keep your impressions private that's your prerogative, but if you want to make them public, hey man you bought the knives, they're yours, and they are what they are.

So, not that you needed it, but you have my blessing anyways. :thumbup: