Sharp Talk: Honest Musings and Mad Ramblings

[Eli Chaps]

Thanks! I guess it becomes noticeable on my PE edges just because I shave with them.
With normal EDU probably not so noticeable. Again, it’s nothing scientific, just anecdotal observation.

Oh yeah, face-shaving is an entirely different world of sharp. I honestly don't trust my sharpening skills enough to go there. I've done it here and there so I could silently beat my chest and break my own arm patting myself on the back, but man, I don't know that I could do it consistently? I'd definitely need to fill out my current sharpening gear inventory.

It doesn't take much variance at all to notice in shaving that's for sure!

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Well, nothing to brag about actually, I’m sure you or Martin are better sharpeners.
I rarely even achieve hair whittling.
I think I have thick skin but thin hair , of course comfort cannot be compared with using dedicated twin blade disposable, but I think why waste steel (disposables) where I should challenge myself to sharpen better and reduce waste.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Well, nothing to brag about actually, I’m sure you or Martin are better sharpeners.
I rarely even achieve hair whittling.
I think I have thick skin but thin hair , of course comfort cannot be compared with using dedicated twin blade disposable, but I think why waste steel (disposables) where I should challenge myself to sharpen better and reduce waste.

Oh I don't know about that.

Don't confuse my love of and passion for sharpening for accomplished skill at it!

I don't even try for hair-whittling. In going back to bench stones I currently don't have the gear for that kind of thing even if I wanted to. But, the truth is, I'm just not that good of sharpener to routinely obtain those results. I haven't really tried to whittle hair too many times but still, my edges are keen and slicey but I'm not on that next level. I remember when I first produced an edge that could cut a tomato without me holding it. I was soooo jacked! I can do that pretty easily with all my kitchen knives now but that's not hair-whittling.

David Martin , HeavyHanded , Obsessed with Edges are the kind of guys I suspect that can produce those edges when they want on pretty much whatever they want. That's why I pay attention to them. The couple times I've achieved those results I think it was much luck as anything else.

 

[Getting older]

Currently I have used the spey blade on my rr sow belly to trim beard,mine stays full all year,been going decent job.Edge is holding well.Prior I have my Buck 307 set aside to trim cheeks and neckline.Some years ago I stopped at a rest area here in ohio,was trimming withy crkt blade lock when a non knife guy walked in,the look on his face was pure Kodak moment!

 

[David Martin]

Eli Chaps , thank you for the credit but really I'm mostly a 2 grit sharpener. I keep 2 blades dedicated at a shaving level for splinters and
special purposes. (created from the ultra fine Spyderco ceramic) The rest of my knives are kept at 3-400 grit for more general use. DM

 

[David Martin]

That Buck 307 Wrangler is not an easy knife to find. You have one, keep it deep in your pocket. DM

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Oh I don't know about that.

Don't confuse my love of and passion for sharpening for accomplished skill at it!

I don't even try for hair-whittling. In going back to bench stones I currently don't have the gear for that kind of thing even if I wanted to. But, the truth is, I'm just not that good of sharpener to routinely obtain those results. I haven't really tried to whittle hair too many times but still, my edges are keen and slicey but I'm not on that next level. I remember when I first produced an edge that could cut a tomato without me holding it. I was soooo jacked! I can do that pretty easily with all my kitchen knives now but that's not hair-whittling.

David Martin , HeavyHanded , Obsessed with Edges are the kind of guys I suspect that can produce those edges when they want on pretty much whatever they want. That's why I pay attention to them. The couple times I've achieved those results I think it was much luck as anything else.

Yeah, learnt much from HeavyHanded , David Martin , Obsessed with Edges , are thankfully still active. I have plenty more, some are not so active anymore, and some have been away for awhile. In no particular order, @Magnaminous_G , @Komitadjie, @fulloflead, @OHALLUM, @Buzzbait , @Jason B. , @bluntcut S sodak , @jackknife , @Lagrangian, @Ankerson , @unit and many others I cannot recall right now. Just want to express my thanks for sharing the experience, knowledge, insight, tips & tricks.

 

[David Martin]

Chris, you're welcome. DM

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Yeah, learnt much from HeavyHanded , David Martin , Obsessed with Edges , are thankfully still active. I have plenty more, some are not so active anymore, and some have been away for awhile. In no particular order, @Magnaminous_G , @Komitadjie, @fulloflead, @OHALLUM, @Buzzbait , @Jason B. , @bluntcut S sodak , @jackknife , @Lagrangian, @Ankerson , @unit and many others I cannot recall right now. Just want to express my thanks for sharing the experience, knowledge, insight, tips & tricks.

Thank you Chris. I'm still learning from all these^ members too. The active discussions keep my mind in the sharpening game, and make me ponder things I'd otherwise never even consider.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Currently I have used the spey blade on my rr sow belly to trim beard,mine stays full all year,been going decent job.Edge is holding well.Prior I have my Buck 307 set aside to trim cheeks and neckline.Some years ago I stopped at a rest area here in ohio,was trimming withy crkt blade lock when a non knife guy walked in,the look on his face was pure Kodak moment!

Eli Chaps , thank you for the credit but really I'm mostly a 2 grit sharpener. I keep 2 blades dedicated at a shaving level for splinters and
special purposes. (created from the ultra fine Spyderco ceramic) The rest of my knives are kept at 3-400 grit for more general use. DM

David, Getting older,

Thank you, I don’t feel so alone shaving with knives

 

[sodak]

I've seen this also (dulling while sitting in drawer), I wonder if there's some "micro" corrosion going on at the apex. It would be interesting to see some hi mag before and after shots to see if that's what is going on. I've also had some pretty nasty rust form on some of my knives in Krupps 4116, a stainless steel, which were dry and in their original boxes in a very dry climate.

Go figure, right?

 

[Eli Chaps]

"Everybody take five..."

Hello Sharpeners.

So on another brand-specific knife forum that I find myself visiting less and less, there is/was a freehand sharpening thread. The poster was new and looking for advice and input. Our own C Chris "Anagarika" was involved and tried to direct the poster here to BF and linked some really good threads for him to check out.

At any rate, there's a couple of regular folks that chime in to the sharpening threads and one of their underlying themes is that if you spend any length of time sharpening, you're in some way or another, messed up. These are the "I can sharpen a blade in less than two minutes" type guys and they outwardly shun the very notion of spending more than a few minutes on the task.

It doesn't matter the steel, the starting condition, the desired outcome, it seems these individuals always have to throw time into the mix and assert, or at a minimum strongly imply, that if you're not getting your knife laser sharp in five minutes or less, well, you suck.

I find this unfortunate to say the least. I don't think it does any new or struggling sharpener any good to bring up time. To me, that will just add another layer of stress and frustration. I suspect folks will think, If these guys are seen as experts or at least accomplished and they are saying they can do all this awesome stuff in just a few minutes, and I can't, well, I must be doing something wrong.

It isn't uncommon for me to spend a half hour, maybe more, working on a knife. It isn't all stone time. Often I'm watching TV, cooking dinner, relaxing, whatever. I'll contemplate the blade, look at it with my loupe, ponder the meaning of life...Ya know, that stuff...

Now, I get there's some relevancy here. If a person is spending three hours trying sharpen a blade, well yeah, that is probably an indicator of something not being right, but I think when folks are looking for help and you chime in how fast you can get a blade "scary sharp" you'e not helping anyone. Just stick to the fundamentals is what I think.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Eli Chaps

I don’t remember which thread, but as our teachers said here often: persistence and lots of checking, correcting (this includes going to coarser stone if the work requires that) along the way is what matters. No mention of time.

You mentioned starting point (condition) and desired outcome. These two combined with the material availability and skill will determine the duration. That’s without pondering meaning of life .
There was one guy using UF stone to polish factory grind mark on his knife and spent 4 hours on one side. Well. It can be done and illustrate clearly the above points.

 

[HeavyHanded]

"Everybody take five..."

Hello Sharpeners.

So on another brand-specific knife forum that I find myself visiting less and less, there is/was a freehand sharpening thread. The poster was new and looking for advice and input. Our own C Chris "Anagarika" was involved and tried to direct the poster here to BF and linked some really good threads for him to check out.

At any rate, there's a couple of regular folks that chime in to the sharpening threads and of their underlying themes is that if you spend any length of time sharpening, you're in some way or another, messed up. These are the "I can sharpen a blade in less than two minutes" type guys and they outwardly shun the very notion of spending more than a few minutes on the task.

It doesn't matter the steel, the starting condition, the desired outcome, it seems these individuals always have to throw time into the mix and assert, or at a minimum strongly imply, that if you're not getting your knife laser sharp in five minutes or less, well, you suck.

I find this unfortunate to say the least. I don't think it does any new or struggling sharpener any good to bring up time. To me, that will just add another layer of stress and frustration. I suspect folks will think, If these guys are seen as experts or at least accomplished and they are saying they can do all this awesome stuff in just a few minutes, and I can't, well, I must be doing something wrong.

It isn't uncommon for me to spend a half hour, maybe more, working on a knife. It isn't all stone time. Often I'm watching TV, cooking dinner, relaxing, whatever. I'll contemplate the blade, look at it with my loupe, ponder the meaning of life...Ya know, that stuff...

Now, I get there's some relevancy here. If a person is spending three hours trying sharpen a blade, well yeah, that is probably an indicator of something not being right, but I think when folks are looking for help and you chime in how fast you can get a blade "scary sharp" you'e not helping anyone. Just stick to the fundamentals is what I think.

I think if someone is taking hours it helps to let them know they're probably going about it wrong, not enough use of the coarse stone, not enough QC etc.

But attaining speed is something you actually have to work on, I got faster because I specifically worked on adapting my skills to become faster. If it takes 30-40 minutes to sharpen a knife that's not a big deal if just sharpening a knife casually for yourself. Even now it might take me 20-30 minutes...if I'm lowering the angle on a $500 DLC coated tactical whatever for a customer. I can do nearly an entire kitchen set of 6 or 8 knives in the same time.

Either way most of the time is spent on QC/visual inspection. Anyone resetting an edge in 2 minutes isn't doing much QC.

If you're going that fast and slapping someone with it, you should also post up a video and demonstrate the process on a 100% dull knife (with quality steel) or be called out.

 

[Eli Chaps]

"A little rough around the edges..."

Hello Sharpeners,

So, here's the thing, if I'm honest, I sometimes struggle with lower grit stones. Now, I'm a firm believer in the knife being sharp off the lower girts before moving up and, for many of my knives, I like to leave them with a lower grit finish. So, it is important I get it right. But, I do sometimes get flustered that I don't achieve the edge I want the first time around. I guess it's more of a consistency thing. Sometimes every thing is great, then once in a while I'll struggle.

And while it can happen with any media, I seem to notice it more on SiC and AlO than say diamond.

I've really been trying to pay attention and see if I can decipher my issue. What I think is happening is a lack of angle consistency and the courser stones are less forgiving than the finer ones. I really think it is that "simple". More specifically, I think it is the introduction of variation during my side-to-side, single, burr removing strokes. I think when I'm working up the burr on one side, and subtle inconsistencies are essentially overcome by the sheer volume of strokes. If I'm off a touch in a spot, another stroke will catch it type thing. So when I switch to my single strokes, again on these course stones, subtle variation becomes far more highlighted. Whereas on the finer stones, a little slop is not so readily or harshly punished.

I've really been trying to focus, slow down, and not do any forward and back strokes while working on the rough stones and believe I'm getting more consistent results. It flusters me that there are legions of rabid fans of Norton's products, Baryonyx ( FortyTwoBlades ), and so on, yet I seem to not get the results I want and gravitate to diamonds. But then, if my theory is true, why would I do better with diamonds, which in general are more aggressive, than with the ceramics?

I really think it just comes down to the fact that the diamonds work so quickly. Most of my sharpening is on pretty sharpen-friendly steels and when I use diamond I simply don't need too many strokes and therefore just have less opportunity to screw up (or get distracted).

Every time I don't grab a Norton India stone in favor of a diamond, I feel like David Martin would want to slap me in the back of the head.

Anyway, what say you all? Think my theory is cracked?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

If I'm understanding you right, I don't think the hypothesis you're putting forth makes sense. With diamond stones, they're basically fancy sandpaper so the abrasive grains sit pretty high off the base material. As a result, they're more aggressive at a given grit size than aluminum oxide or silicon carbide in a bonded stone. The diamonds working fast is essentially the same thing as with a coarse aluminum oxide or silicon carbide stone, so you having problems on one and not on the other doesn't make sense if that's the basis you're using. And you mention using lots of strokes on the aluminum oxide and silicon carbide stones...in addition to appropriate grit size, how much pressure are you using? Some such stones are intended for light pressure (like water stones) while others are intended for use with moderate or heavy pressure. If you're used to diamonds, low pressure is what you should be using because of high pressure potentially damaging the bond of the diamonds to the backing plate. But if you use that same pressure on a bonded aluminum oxide or silicon carbide stone it may take you forever because they're meant to be used with heavier pressure.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

"A little rough around the edges..."

Hello Sharpeners,

So, here's the thing, if I'm honest, I sometimes struggle with lower grit stones. Now, I'm a firm believer in the knife being sharp off the lower girts before moving up and, for many of my knives, I like to leave them with a lower grit finish. So, it is important I get it right. But, I do sometimes get flustered that I don't achieve the edge I want the first time around. I guess it's more of a consistency thing. Sometimes every thing is great, then once in a while I'll struggle.

And while it can happen with any media, I seem to notice it more on SiC and AlO than say diamond.

I've really been trying to pay attention and see if I can decipher my issue. What I think is happening is a lack of angle consistency and the courser stones are less forgiving than the finer ones. I really think it is that "simple". More specifically, I think it is the introduction of variation during my side-to-side, single, burr removing strokes. I think when I'm working up the burr on one side, and subtle inconsistencies are essentially overcome by the sheer volume of strokes. If I'm off a touch in a spot, another stroke will catch it type thing. So when I switch to my single strokes, again on these course stones, subtle variation becomes far more highlighted. Whereas on the finer stones, a little slop is not so readily or harshly punished.

I've really been trying to focus, slow down, and not do any forward and back strokes while working on the rough stones and believe I'm getting more consistent results. It flusters me that there are legions of rabid fans of Norton's products, Baryonyx ( FortyTwoBlades ), and so on, yet I seem to not get the results I want and gravitate to diamonds. But then, if my theory is true, why would I do better with diamonds, which in general are more aggressive, than with the ceramics?

I really think it just comes down to the fact that the diamonds work so quickly. Most of my sharpening is on pretty sharpen-friendly steels and when I use diamond I simply don't need too many strokes and therefore just have less opportunity to screw up (or get distracted).

Every time I don't grab a Norton India stone in favor of a diamond, I feel like David Martin would want to slap me in the back of the head.

Anyway, what say you all? Think my theory is cracked?

I followed a similar learning path, in that my first best results came from using a diamond hone. And within that limitation, I also was able to do better with Fine/EF grits of diamond early on, then eventually figured out how to carry my success into coarser diamond hones. AFTER ALL THAT, in going back to aluminum oxide & SiC oilstones, I found that the 'touch' I'd learned in using diamond hones paid off with these other stones as well. And the same applied in my later use of ceramic hones as well (these REALLY NEED a light touch, more than any other, to avoid nasty burring issues).

I'm a firm believer in the (literal) ease with which diamonds can cut steel and the hard carbides included in it. All other things being equal, such as grit size, shape, sharpness, etc, diamond's hardness allows it to cut as deeply into steel at a third or less of the pressure needed to cut as deeply with lesser abrasives. This means diamond responds much more easily to a light, easy touch. FOR ME, I think that's what finally allowed me to figure things out in sharpening, as that light touch is something that feels more natural to me, in my own hands. I previously always had trouble with other stones, trying to maintain control of the angle and other factors, while at the same time trying to apply enough grinding pressure to make the stone work as aggressively as I assumed it should. I never acquired the feel for them, until after I'd had my 'epiphany' in figuring out diamond hones first.

So, long story short, I'd say run with what works for you now, in using diamond hones. Pay very close attention to your use of pressure with them while doing so. Then take the same learned lessons with you, to the other stones. BTW, after learning all I've mentioned here, a Norton India is one of my favorite stones, these days.

 

[Bill3152]

Sharpening is a simple task. Apex the edge and then polish. Your doing the same thing on one stone as the others. I'm not saying it takes 5 minutes or 5 blades to get it. But keep doing the same thing over and over. Mark the bevel and make sure you're being consistent. Make sure the steel your using can be sharpened by the stones or whatever your using. Get the sharpening down before you start stropping. And once your sharpening is good you have to work on your stropping. Just do it! Your 20th blade will be better than your 5th. And your 50th will be better than your 20th. Etc etc.

 

[Eli Chaps]

FortyTwoBlades I agree, it don't make no sense. Which is why I went in for the stretch explanation.

But maybe you boys are right; maybe it is pressure related. That's a variable I hadn't mixed into the equation. I will say, I am always very conscious of my pressure with diamonds and don't know that I pay too close of attention on the ceramics. I don't use a lot of pressure in general but it is surely something I'll now watch and be conscious of.

To be clear, I'm not bad on the lower grits. Just not as consistent as I'd like to be. I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to be much more critical of myself and my edges. And, as always, I hope others read here and learn and feel comfortable asking questions.

 

[Bill3152]

Why not stay at a low grit until you are sure you got it nailed? 325 edge is a great working edge. Once you nail it 20 times out of 20 then move on up. Jmo.