Sharpener Upgrade

Tsujigiri

Tsujigiri

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May 25, 2009
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So I've been getting by quite well with my Sharpmaker and the additional diamond and UF stones, but I'm getting to the point where I'm looking to upgrade my sharpening abilities. I've looked into some higher-end sharpeners fairly extensively, but the more I look, the more questions I seem to have. The Wicked Edge looks pretty nice, and is cheaper than the Edgepro Apex, but it's my understanding it won't get knives as sharp. Also, I wouldn't be able to try out a 10 degree per side angle with CPM-M4 like I've been wanting to. So it looks like I'm leaning towards the Edgepro Apex, but I have a couple of questions before I take the plunge. I'm planning on getting the model with everything in it, do I need anything else? I think I should get some extra 6000 grit tape, no? Also, there seems to be an issue with the stones curving, do I need to get the kit for reflattening, or can I get by with something else? I have a couple knives with recurves, but do I really absolutely need the .5 inch stones, or do they just make things easier? Finally, the method for sharpening serrations seems like it would wear the knife oddly over time. Does anyone have some long term experience with this? Should I keep the Sharpmaker for serrations, or any other reason? Thanks in advance!
 
If you're seriously looking at the Apex (Good call, I love mine) then I'd suggest that you forgo the tapes, and either get the kit from CKTG that includes the full Chosera set, or sharpen with the stock ones and pick up aftermarkets at your leisure. You will also want to pick up a DMT XC diamond plate, Jende sells them pre-mounted on extra-wide blanks for the EdgePro. It serves double duty for heavy profiling, and flattening your stones. Right there, you will EASILY be able to exceed anything your Sharpmaker could even hope of doing, without even getting the aftermarket stones.

I also have a WEPS on order, their "Pro Pack 1" that has the full spread of their diamond plates, and strops with 5 and 3.5u diamond compound. Incidentally, if you like the WEPS, there are already aftermarket waterstones available directly from them, and Tom at Jende or Ken at CKTG can make you up any set that isn't already available. :) It is quite capable of getting a knife "as sharp" as the WEPS is, especially with the Chosera or Shapton add-on paddles, and the Hand American sprays. They've got (from WEPS without even going aftermarket) all the way down to eighth-micron sprays!

Unless your knife has a particularly severe recurve, I haven't had any problem using my stock 1" stones. And I would definitely keep the Sharpmaker, I still have mine. It's nowhere near as good as the EP or WEPS for actually sharpening, but it's hard to beat for putting an edge back to a knife that's just starting to lose it's bite. A few swipes on the F/UF rods will put an edge back on a blade that's starting to slightly roll with no problem at all, and it's quite conveniently portable.
 
Thanks! What is the advantage of these Chosera stones? Do they last longer or something?
 
The Chosera and Shapton stones are very high-quality, high-abrasive-density synthetic waterstone. Which basically means that they cut very smoothly, and leave an extremely regular scratch pattern. That's what you're after for getting a mirror finish and the best possible edge. Generally, the higher the abrasive density, the better the waterstone will cut.

In comparison to the stock stones, they will both last longer, and produce a finer edge. Although coming from a Sharpmaker, the factory stones will AMAZE you. I know, because that's the exact route I took. :)
 
kom has good advise... i would listen to him. i'll try to answer some of your questions too if i can. a couple of things to consider 1. the aftermarket stones are expensive, so you may want to get the tape to start you off... you can sharpen 5-10 knives per piece of tape, so they last a while. 2. I have heard, although not experienced, that the WEPS is a pain to get new stones/strops because they are expensive. so if you want a full array of sharpening grits, it gets expensive fast. just get on their site and price it out.

as far as the 6000 grit tape, it just depends on how high of a polish you want on your edges... here is a EP grit conversion chart, showing that the 6000 grit tape is the equivalent of .9 microns.

Flattening the stones: for flattening the stones, yes. it is a good idea to get a piece of glass (not necessarily from EP if you already have one laying around) and use the silicon carbide with it. it works GREAT! otherwise, if you're not going to be doing a lot of sharpening, you can get by with just flattening your stones on concrete.

Recurves: yes, you will need the .5" stones if you want to do these, it will not work with the regular sized stones.

Serrations: I had the same concern as you and, while it would make the serrated knives sharp, i viewed it as cheating and saw that the serrations would eventually wear out the more you sharpened it. for this, i use re-profiled, .25" paper wheels. check post # 9 out here... you can't beat it for serrations!
 
Good point, Razor. I was thinking from the standpoint of doing knives like I do. The tapes wouldn't last that long for me, and they're rather delicate, although no worse than a strop. They DO put on a nice finish, though!

WEPS paddles are expensive with waterstones, mainly because each set of paddles comes with FOUR high-end waterstones (2 each of 2 grits) instead of just the 2 you'd need to do the same thing on the EdgePro. Of course, with twice the surface area of stone, they'll LAST twice as long as well and need less flattening per knife (wear spread out over two stones instead of one), so it's more or less a wash in the long run. Just a higher price to start out with. Their site lists them, be prepared to clutch your chest and choke when you see the price tag. Also, if you're going for a REALLY premo finish, both the EP and the WEPS offer the ability to use leather or balsa strops, with your choice of microabrasive pastes or sprays. CKTG offers them down to .125 micron, as I recall. Now THAT's fine. :D

If you're curious about the grits involved in various stuff, do a search on here for "Grit Chart" and you'll see a project I put together a while back. It's fairly inclusive, and has the micron grades for the abrasives in all the systems we've discussed here. :)
 
I think I misunderstood the grits. After looking at your chart, Komitadjie, it looks like the 10,000 grit Chosera stones won't polish as finely as the Edgepro tapes? So is there a real advantage to getting a more uniform scratch pattern if you're just going to polish over it with the tapes? I think I might be able to get by with the standard Apex 4 kit, since I won't be sharpening quite that often.

I'll have to look more into these paper wheels, too...
 
Wow those sound like some really shinny edges these things produce. I was just wondering what type of cutting these edges do. Can you slice rope and other fiborus materials with them, field dress game, or are they for push cutting.
 
Ah, now THERE you're going to start a minor war, Forge. lol Everyone's got a different opinion on polished edges. Personally, *I* find that a very highly refined edge works better and lasts longer, YMMV widely!

Don't trust the grits on my chart for the polish tapes on the EdgePro, Tsujigiri. Those are based on an "approximation" by another fellow, he was not able to confirm them either. The stones are a confirmed grit size by microscopic measurement (as I understand, I don't own a SEM, sadly) but the tapes are not. I believe them to be CLOSE, but that's why they're marked as approximate, I have no experimental verification or a verified source. Also bear in mind that a stone and a tape polish entirely differently, although at that level, you're well into a "mirror" finish. Honestly, you'll be very happy with either kit, I think. I purchased the Apex-3 kit myself, since I did not have the additional cash on hand, and have slowly added some additional stones.
 
I am not looking to start a war. I have sharpened some blades to a polished edge, but I don't think I have gotten them down to where you guys are talking about though. Therefore I am curious how they cut when polished really fine.

Maybe this would be for a new thread or one that has already been discussed.
 
They cut spectacularly well, and while the edge does degrade, it takes a long time for the edge to degrade back to merely 'factory sharp.'
 
You can't go wrong with the Edge-Pro. I have the "Pro" model, but the Apex will do almost everything the "Pro" does.

As for edge refinement, all of my blades, including hunting and utility knives are polished and refined to a minimum of 10,000 grit. My better steels are usually finished to .125 micron with a balsa strop and cubic boron nitride. (CBN)

I've field dressed and skinned up to 3 elk with one blade, and it would still shave arm hair.

I've tried many systems, including the SM, paper wheels, Lansky, etc, and I can recomend the Edge-Pro without reservation.

I can't address the Wicked Edge since I've not used one, but I've heard and read many reports about it, and they were all quite positive. Perhaps I will purchase one in the future to facilitate a side-by-side comparison with the EP. :p

Such a comparison, if performed properly, should be interesting indeed. :thumbup:
 
I sold my EP to get the Wicked Edge and am very happy I did. I find it easier to use and more repeatable. I am not saying anything against the EP- it works fine for many people. My issues with it were: different thicknesses of stones (especially after some wear) means having to check and reset angles when changing grits, some folders/small blades were difficult for me (you have to work around thumbstuds and mickey mouse a jig for small blades), and some grinds were hard for me to maintain a constant angle, especially when having to move the blade around to get at the point.

As I said, these were issues for me and I only mention them to help you choose. Lots of people either don't have these issues or learn how to work with them. I am happier with the WE.
 
One more thing tsujigirl, don't throw away your sharpmaker. I think that the EP and the SM make a good pair. Once you have rebeveled your knives to match the angle settings on the sharpmaker, it is a breeze to touch them up back to hair whittling or tree topping(however much time you care to put in) on the sharpmaker.

And one more thing. I find that the stock stones work on recurves like the ZT 200 and ZT 301, as well as on the superhawk. I haven't tried more severe recurves yet.
 
I sold my EP to get a wicked edge. I just didn't care for all the quirks. I also prefer the edge diamonds give over water stones and like a coarse finish :)
 
Heh, I kept my EP and ordered a WEPS as well. I guess I've just got a bit of a sharpening problem. :D

I'm looking forward to an opportunity for a side-by-side comparison, actually. The WEPS looks to have a bit of an edge, especially on knives that would have issues on the EP, especially stuff with multiple bevels, thumb studs, etc. Plus, it'll be cool to have the ability to sharpen ceramic blades. In time I will probably end up with the waterstones for the WEPS as well, I'd like to go with Chosera stones in 4K, 6K, 10K and 15K as well.
 
MVF said:
I sold my EP to get the Wicked Edge and am very happy I did. I find it easier to use and more repeatable. I am not saying anything against the EP- it works fine for many people. My issues with it were: different thicknesses of stones (especially after some wear) means having to check and reset angles when changing grits, some folders/small blades were difficult for me (you have to work around thumbstuds and mickey mouse a jig for small blades), and some grinds were hard for me to maintain a constant angle, especially when having to move the blade around to get at the point.

As I said, these were issues for me and I only mention them to help you choose. Lots of people either don't have these issues or learn how to work with them. I am happier with the WE.
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I use an angle cube to reset the EP every time I change a stone. I haven't used the WEPS yet, of course, but if you use waterstones to polish and refine your blade, as I assume most would do, the angle cube would be necessary with the WEPS as well. Of course, if one is satisfied with the rough, crude edge that is left by diamonds, then it would of course be unnecessary.

Komitadjie, I would be very interested in reveiwing your personal experience with the WEPS. I would also be interesting in knowing if my theory is correct, that it could be used in conjunction with your EP, to create an integrated sharpening system superior to either system alone. :p
 
I've never needed to use the angle cube on the EP, the drill collar has always given me results that appear acceptable in both the sharpie check and under magnification. Once I get the cube, though, I'll probably use it to double check, just for my own interest. With waterstones on the WEPS, you will need it for sure, unless you REALLY want to sharpie-test both sides of every blade with every grit. I'll be quite interested in how the diamonds perform down at the 3.5 micron level, I've never used diamonds that fine before. It might be rather interesting to use the diamonds down through the ultra-fine plates for their fast profiling method. Then switch to waterstones on the EP...

It's going to be fun for sure! Something else that might be interesting would be WEPS or EP sharpening, then switching to a leather belt on my Kalamazoo with Hand American or Ken's CBN for a final power stropping to put a really, really tiny convex at the very edge of a highly polished V-bevel.
 
Komitadjie said:
Something else that might be interesting would be WEPS or EP sharpening, then switching to a leather belt on my Kalamazoo with Hand American or Ken's CBN for a final power stropping to put a really, really tiny convex at the very edge of a highly polished V-bevel.
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Indeed. It would be very intetresting to test a straight "V" honed to .125 micron beside an identical blade so honed, and then power stropped.

I hadn't planned on purchasing a WEPS this year, but now my interest is piqued. One of my elk huntng companions, a colleague over in the engineering school, has examined the specifications of both systerms, and it is his carefully considered opinion that the two systems could be used in a complimentary manner to create a truly superb integrated sharpening system.

Since I maintain his knives, I'm attempting to convince him to share in the cost of the WEPS. After all, it is for scientific research isn't it? :p
 
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