Sharpening Angles

[joelozzy]

Hey Gang,

Just a few quick questions in regards to sharpening angles.

What angle does a majority of you sharpen at? Are you using a micro bevel also for ease of sharpening?

My knives are used mostly for hunting and general chores. Most guides will tell me that a 20-25 degree bevel is suitable for me however I own the Spyderco Sharpmaker.

If I fully back Bevel to 15 degrees but than micro bevel using the 20 degree setting...Does my edge still have the durability of a 20 degree angle or is it more similar to a kitchen knife due to the 15 degree back bevel?

I'm thinking about selling my Sharpmaker for a Lansky guided rod system because it took me 3 - 4 hours last night to fully back bevel and reach the Apex of my PM2 (S30V) using the Diamond stones on the Sharpmaker.



Any thoughts or information is highly appreciated.


Thankyou

Joel

 

[Jamesh Bond]

1. Your edge durability comes more from the thickness of the metal down there. Not so much the angle.

2. 15-30 degrees is the spectrum of the majority. You will find 2 basic groups of people here: those who can tell you their edge angle is exactly 16.24 degrees, and those who will tell you theirs is around 20 ish degrees or so.

3. Learn to free hand. As a knife user, aficionado, whatever, why spend your life and money relying on a crutch when it's TRULY just as easy to freehand, at only the expense of a learning curve? Especially with the information here at your disposal?

Personally, I learned what certain angles look like by looking at a protractor, and eyeball to match my memory if I have to grind the bevel. If I'm doing a knife I like the angle on, I go by feel and sound to match what's already there. Freehand.

I've been deliberately keeping my CQC-7 and Tenacious off of any sharpening equipment. Using simply the principles I know, I've nevertheless kept both these knives hair popping sharp on all kinds of random crap I'll happen to pick up. And I'm definitely no master. Personally, I really enjoy the satisfaction of being able to do this. YMMV.

Therefore, there are really no straight answers to your question, since each person has their own unique experience and philosophy of use. Hence going off track with the the freehand suggestion and story.

Normally I'm not the type to try to convince the OP of stuff they didn't ask about, but in this case, I wanted to illustrate my points.

Hope it made sense.
It's late.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi

Hey Gang,

Just a few quick questions in regards to sharpening angles.

What angle does a majority of you sharpen at? Are you using a micro bevel also for ease of sharpening?

My knives are used mostly for hunting and general chores. Most guides will tell me that a 20-25 degree bevel is suitable for me however I own the Spyderco Sharpmaker.

If I fully back Bevel to 15 degrees but than micro bevel using the 20 degree setting...Does my edge still have the durability of a 20 degree angle or is it more similar to a kitchen knife due to the 15 degree back bevel?

I'm thinking about selling my Sharpmaker for a Lansky guided rod system because it took me 3 - 4 hours last night to fully back bevel and reach the Apex of my PM2 (S30V) using the Diamond stones on the Sharpmaker.



Any thoughts or information is highly appreciated.

Hi,
FYI, lansky/smiths clone with diamonds can be bought on ebay for $7.99 $6.09 with free shipping, and a hardware store sharpening stone (coarse) can be had for under $10

optimum knife edge angles and what they should be able to do/slice/chop

Hi

Yes, it depends basically what the other guys said

Consider that under 15 dps edge can chop bones
And 12 dps edge can still shaves/whittles beard hair after 1000 slices of hardwood

So if you're chopping rocks and bricks, 25dps might resist damage better than 20dps,
but if you're slicing stuff, 25dps dulls faster than 20dps even if those are microbevel angles

So, recommendations for 25-30 degrees per side sharpening angle
are great for first time sharpeners or if you only have seconds and need results quick,
much better than a dull knife
... but try and do a couple hundred slices with that edge angle ... ouch

See also Insane performance boost in cutting ability!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Hey Gang,

Just a few quick questions in regards to sharpening angles.

What angle does a majority of you sharpen at? Are you using a micro bevel also for ease of sharpening?

My knives are used mostly for hunting and general chores. Most guides will tell me that a 20-25 degree bevel is suitable for me however I own the Spyderco Sharpmaker.

If I fully back Bevel to 15 degrees but than micro bevel using the 20 degree setting...Does my edge still have the durability of a 20 degree angle or is it more similar to a kitchen knife due to the 15 degree back bevel?

I'm thinking about selling my Sharpmaker for a Lansky guided rod system because it took me 3 - 4 hours last night to fully back bevel and reach the Apex of my PM2 (S30V) using the Diamond stones on the Sharpmaker.



Any thoughts or information is highly appreciated.


Thankyou

Joel

On that bolded point specifically, you might not notice much, if any speed improvement with rebevelling steels like S30V. The small hone size of the Lansky hones (and Sharpmaker's rods) are the bigger limitation, even if using diamond. If you want to use an angle guide for rebevelling, DMT's Aligner clamp used in combination with a full-size bench hone (diamond for S30V) would make a much bigger difference in speed. The greater surface area of the available grit is what will drastically reduce the time needed for heavy grinding jobs, maybe cutting it down to 1/4-1/2 the time or less. Technique used will also make a difference, with a back/forth 'scrubbing' technique being much faster than using only edge-leading passes, one at a time. The scrubbing technique is much more user-friendly on a larger bench hone too.

As to the durability of your 20° microbevel, it can make some difference at the edge. You sort of get the better of both worlds, in that the 15° back bevel will help improve slicing performance in thicker materials, and the 20° micro will help it hold up longer, IF you actually need that in the first place. I'd usually recommend just trying it without the microbevel for a while. Most modern and decently heat-treated steels will hold up just fine at 30° inclusive (15° per side) anyway, sometimes even down to 25° inclusive (this is where many of my knives end up). If you do decide to add the micro later, it'll still be easy to do.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hey Gang,

Just a few quick questions in regards to sharpening angles.

What angle does a majority of you sharpen at? Are you using a micro bevel also for ease of sharpening?

My knives are used mostly for hunting and general chores. Most guides will tell me that a 20-25 degree bevel is suitable for me however I own the Spyderco Sharpmaker.

If I fully back Bevel to 15 degrees but than micro bevel using the 20 degree setting...Does my edge still have the durability of a 20 degree angle or is it more similar to a kitchen knife due to the 15 degree back bevel?

I'm thinking about selling my Sharpmaker for a Lansky guided rod system because it took me 3 - 4 hours last night to fully back bevel and reach the Apex of my PM2 (S30V) using the Diamond stones on the Sharpmaker.



Any thoughts or information is highly appreciated.


Thankyou

Joel

Even on heavy choppers I find little edge retention improvement going with an edge wider than 30° inclusive. For my pocket and kitchen knives I shoot for 26°, and on my machetes and hatchets I go for 30°.

Per Jamesh Bond, I don't know my angles exactly, but when I do go back and check them to a microscope or the angle guide on my wet wheel I find I'm darn close to those numbers.

Also per J B, sharpening freehand is liberating in many ways. Even if you opt for a guided system you should do yourself a favor and work on your freehand as well. On a good coarse stone you would never spend 3-4 hours sharpening any one thing - I reset bevels on many knives in 5 minutes or less most of the time, and even for someone with less familiarity I'd guess 20-25 minutes would be the top end.

I use microbevels most often when in a hurry or sharpening for another. They are a quick way to clean up the edge on a knife and allow the edge finish to be tailored nicely to the task - initially anyway. I don't like them much over the long haul. As the micro gets bigger it looses cutting efficiency faster than edges finished on a hard strop IMHO.

 

[Dangerously]

I wouldn't sell the sharpmaker. I nearly sold mine, but glad I didn't because it came in handy.

Like you, to speed up sharpening, I decided to get something other than the sharpmaker. I find it easier and faster to reprofile freehand on diamond benchstones to angles around 12-15 dps, and then put on a microbevel with the 40 inclusive sharpmaker ceramic rods. You can then touch up the microbevel on the sharpmaker a few times without needing to go to the benchstones.

Don't give up on the sharpmaker yet!

 

[Gaston444]

Even on heavy choppers I find little edge retention improvement going with an edge wider than 30° inclusive. For my pocket and kitchen knives I shoot for 26°, and on my machetes and hatchets I go for 30°.



I use microbevels most often when in a hurry or sharpening for another. They are a quick way to clean up the edge on a knife and allow the edge finish to be tailored nicely to the task - initially anyway. I don't like them much over the long haul. .

Amen on both. I do find micro-bevelled edge finishes hard to avoid, but they are something to minimize at least. 15 degrees per side should be an absolute maximum for the heaviest tasks...

I find that for chopping wood 12 degrees per side (24 inclusive) on a 0.020" edge base is the best combination (in fact no matter what the knife or task is), because the edge bites so easily into the wood it actually gets "pinched" by the wood, and so it is actually less prone to apex damage: The "pinching" wood helps protects the edge from side loads on impact.

In fact I have a least one knife, a Lile "Mission" with a 0.028" edge base, that has superb durability while chopping with an edge bevel that is nearly 3 times as tall as it is wide: That 3X ratio is a visual reference point for an edge that is at a true 10 degrees per side...

Given that edges at such thin angles are also superior for many other tasks (like meat cutting), and easier to touch up, it is obvious that the absurd 20 per side angle is a way to make inferior steel look durable and tough...: In many cases poor quality steels show a tendency to crumble or micro-fold the edge (while chopping dry wood) even at much thicker angles like 15 per side: It is not easily seen, but you can detect micro-folds by rubbing the top of your nail away from the apex: It will grab whitish material. I've found two different CPM steels are particularly prone to this, namely CPM 154 cm and S30V, and I suspect most of the others should be avoided for chopping tasks, since micro-folding seems to me like a particular CPM "specialty".

Mind you, micro-folded edges can still cut for a long time... Most empires have probably been built with them...

Gaston

 

[jc57]

I go 20 per side for most pocket knives and 15 per side for most kitchen knives.

 

[NorthernKnife]

19 degrees here, my folding knives aren't for heavy duty use so i'm not concerned about rolling the edge.

 

[awestib]

Amen on both. I do find micro-bevelled edge finishes hard to avoid, but they are something to minimize at least. 15 degrees per side should be an absolute maximum for the heaviest tasks...

I find that for chopping wood 12 degrees per side (24 inclusive) on a 0.020" edge base is the best combination (in fact no matter what the knife or task is), because the edge bites so easily into the wood it actually gets "pinched" by the wood, and so it is actually less prone to apex damage: The "pinching" wood helps protects the edge from side loads on impact.

In fact I have a least one knife, a Lile "Mission" with a 0.028" edge base, that has superb durability while chopping with an edge bevel that is nearly 3 times as tall as it is wide: That 3X ratio is a visual reference point for an edge that is at a true 10 degrees per side...

Given that edges at such thin angles are also superior for many other tasks (like meat cutting), and easier to touch up, it is obvious that the absurd 20 per side angle is a way to make inferior steel look durable and tough...: In many cases poor quality steels show a tendency to crumble or micro-fold the edge (while chopping dry wood) even at much thicker angles like 15 per side: It is not easily seen, but you can detect micro-folds by rubbing the top of your nail away from the apex: It will grab whitish material. I've found two different CPM steels are particularly prone to this, namely CPM 154 cm and S30V, and I suspect most of the others should be avoided for chopping tasks, since micro-folding seems to me like a particular CPM "specialty".

Mind you, micro-folded edges can still cut for a long time... Most empires have probably been built with them...

Gaston

Isn't the Lile Mission made from CPM 154?

 

[bgentry]

I find that for chopping wood 12 degrees per side (24 inclusive) on a 0.020" edge base is the best combination

Why would you "chop wood" with any kind of knife? I understand chopping with an axe or a machete of course. But I'd think you'd need quite a bit of mass in the tool to effectively chop wood and no knife under 14" or so is going to really have the swing speed or mass to be any good at wood chopping, I would expect. Is this some kind of bushcraft specialized, minimal tool use kind of thing? Seems ineffective, but I'm not a woods guy so I might be totally wrong here.

Brian.

 

[bodog]

Some people you should listen to, others not so much.

12 dps isn't absolutely unreasonable or anything but it needs to kept in perspective and in context. Chopping wood and grass or cuttint clean meat on a plastic cuttint board isn't really demanding on any edge. Whittling extremely hard, dry woods, carving bone, skinning wildlife, etc., are actually demanding on an edge and 12 dps will show weakness in all but the easiest of tasks. There are other factors but what gaston said isn't true on the surface. Those other factors could lead to him being right but by far, concerning most knives and manufacturers and final blade makes out there, he's wrong. But sure, a knife could be made to prove him right. It'd be a very specialty made knife for an extremely narrow amount of easy work, but it's possible.

 

[mycough]

Some people you should listen to, others not so much.

12 dps isn't absolutely unreasonable or anything but it needs to kept in perspective and in context. Chopping wood and grass or cuttint clean meat on a plastic cuttint board isn't really demanding on any edge. Whittling extremely hard, dry woods, carving bone, skinning wildlife, etc., are actually demanding on an edge and 12 dps will show weakness in all but the easiest of tasks. There are other factors but what gaston said isn't true on the surface. Those other factors could lead to him being right but by far, concerning most knives and manufacturers and final blade makes out there, he's wrong. But sure, a knife could be made to prove him right. It'd be a very specialty made knife for an extremely narrow amount of easy work, but it's possible.

What he said/\
There is some wonderful info here, and some crap. There should be a filter. My wife has one, she hears little of what I have to say, probably a good thing...
Good luck, you will find what works for you, keep at it.
Russ

 

[me2]

If all you have is a Sharpmaker, backbevel at 15 and micro bevel at 20. You won't have the strength of 20 degrees, but it will cut better. My work knives are back beveled at 17 degrees and micro beveled at 20. They occasionally see scraping and other work and hold up fine.