Sharpening at the end of time, if you had to go into the woods...

[retrobass]

carrying ONLY your knife (1095 carbon we'll say for sake of argument), what kind of edge would you want on it? Let me add a little specificity to question.

You'll have to be able to split firewood, skin a deer with enough elbow grease, whack some cattail roots out of the ground, cut up your venison steak, carve wood, etc.

I'm basically deciding between convex, standard v grind, or other? I absolutely SUCK and keeping a consistent angle with my smith double diamond sharpener. Any sharpening techniques I use on my BK2 WILL be with some kit I feel comfortable carrying with me all day every day, with the exception of a good initial grind type change.

So here's the two sub question caveats with above in mind:

1) You have NO sharpening equipment in woods. You might find some big quartz rocks, or river smoothed flint with a day or two's hike. Raiders are shooting at you as you hike.

2) Better scenario, have you SOME simple sharpening equipment, but its small enough to be worn around your neck 24/7, even when you sleep.

Your answers will determine where I focus my initial sharpening research and learning energies Thanks so much guys.

 

[mrdeus]

I think most geometries would be fine -- V, convex or scandi. I mean, you can put a V edge on the convex or scandi edge with the rocks or whatnot when you're in the wild. I haven't done much field sharpening, so this is purely theoretical from my standpoint.

 

[9blades]

Convex is what you need it's the most durable.

 

[ThatsMyKnife]

I would go for a convex edge. Not a full height convex but a "mini convex"

 

[retrobass]

Convex is what you need it's the most durable.

How would you sharpen a convex in the woods?

 

[Magnaminous_G]

One point of clarification: In this "end of time" scenario where I head out into the woods with no gear and only a knife, do I have Chuck Norris with me or not? On second thoughts, if I'm butt-naked and only holding a knife, maybe I wouldn't want Chuck with me.

Let me say this: I have some minor bushcraft skills and understand the core concepts, but I have very little practical experience in primitive living; I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty screwed pretty fast, I think. Sharpening the knife wouldn't be a problem and would be the least of my worries. I could find an appropriate rock and get a "working edge" up pretty quickly on good 1095. It's making shelter, starting a fire, and improvising clothing that would be the real challenge for me in the first 24 hours. I think my will to survive would be strong, and I might be able to get a decent lean-to made and possibly even start a friction fire with sticks and survive the first night. I don't know if I'd make it out of a week, though. I don't even know what I'd improvise for clothes... which would mean I'd be foraging for food and water naked, getting all cut up and stung/bit to hell by bugs. It would be hell. Maybe I'd survive, I don't know.

- Mag

 

[retrobass]

One point of clarification: In this "end of time" scenario where I head out into the woods with no gear and only a knife, do I have Chuck Norris with me or not? On second thoughts, if I'm butt-naked and only holding a knife, maybe I wouldn't want Chuck with me.

Let me say this: I have some minor bushcraft skills and understand the core concepts, but I have very little practical experience in primitive living; I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty screwed pretty fast, I think. Sharpening the knife wouldn't be a problem and would be the least of my worries. I could find an appropriate rock and get a "working edge" up pretty quickly on good 1095. It's making shelter, starting a fire, and improvising clothing that would be the real challenge for me in the first 24 hours. I think my will to survive would be strong, and I might be able to get a decent lean-to made and possibly even start a friction fire with sticks and survive the first night. I don't know if I'd make it out of a week, though. I don't even know what I'd improvise for clothes... which would mean I'd be foraging for food and water naked, getting all cut up and stung/bit to hell by bugs. It would be hell. Maybe I'd survive, I don't know.

- Mag

You'd have a Glock with 27 rounds of ammo, which could kick chuck's butt all day long.
I think for all of the above worries (with the exception of a gun, which I'm quite a bit better at working on than a knife) a blade is the god of all survival. Maybe I ought to try to go out in the woods and play around with rocks and see what kinda edges I can get. Haven't really even thought of such thus far. Not like I'm going to run out of metal on the BK2 all that fast. I wonder if a convex or v bevel would be easier to straighten up on a rock? If some sharpener can stay with me 24/7 I'm not opposed to that either. All I read points me toward convex, just dont' know about how easy it'd be to tune up on the fly. I want to be utterly proficient at making this knife field sharp BEFORE the need ever arises.

 

[crom]

"How would you sharpen a convex in the woods"

I'd imagine you could put a little sand on a piece of leather and have at it. If you didn't have leather, your pants would probably do.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I imagine you could use a flat piece of wood and some river grit or sand to grind it like one would use a knife board. Stropping could be done on any smoother surface using grit from a hardwood campfire. I intend to try this or similar on my next backpacking trip. Plenty of indigenous peoples keep all manner of steel tools serviceable in places where quality stones and diamond plates do not exist.

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_1.pdf

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_2.pdf

These links should give you plenty of ideas on how folks did and still do use all manner of stuff to achieve a good edge.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Convexing is EASY. Any freehanded edge will eventually end up convex anyway, at least slightly, whether one intends it or not. HH's suggestion of the knifeboard is a good one (relatively flat piece of wood, with some sand/silt/grit, and some water) and 'strop away' on the board. I'd imagine a large flat & smooth rock could also be used with the sand/silt as well, for heavier grinding.

A chunk of sandstone works quite well with 1095 and simpler stainless, used in a similar manner as the knifeboard (trailing strokes). Can be used like a waterstone, as it soaks up moisture like a sponge.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

Convexing is EASY. Any freehanded edge will eventually end up convex anyway, at least slightly, whether one intends it or not. HH's suggestion of the knifeboard is a good one (relatively flat piece of wood, with some sand/silt/grit, and some water) and 'strop away' on the board. I'd imagine a large flat & smooth rock could also be used with the sand/silt as well, for heavier grinding.

A chunk of sandstone works quite well with 1095 and simpler stainless, used in a similar manner as the knifeboard (trailing strokes). Can be used like a waterstone, as it soaks up moisture like a sponge.


David

Surprisingly you can use a leading stroke, or a back and forth stroke to start, using a trailing stroke to finish after most of the burr is gone. I read this in part 1 of the linked reference work and thought it was a typo or oversight. After trying it was surprised to find it did indeed work and didn't just chew my edge up. I went down to 220 grit SiC, I imagine this is about the finest one would find in a stream, if even - closer to 80 is more like it. As they get worked into the grain of the wood the effective grit size is going to change quite a bit - thinning the back bevel with a bit of elbow grease should help as a prep for grinding the edge and cracking some of the larger grains down to a more civilized size.

 

[sintro]

You all probably know this, but the minor variations in angle caused by human error when sharpening causes a slight convex edge. But, I would take a little 2x1 arkansas or diamond stone. I'm gonna have to find a flat rock and try sharpening on it sometimes!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Surprisingly you can use a leading stroke, or a back and forth stroke to start, using a trailing stroke to finish after most of the burr is gone. I read this in part 1 of the linked reference work and thought it was a typo or oversight. After trying it was surprised to find it did indeed work and didn't just chew my edge up. I went down to 220 grit SiC, I imagine this is about the finest one would find in a stream, if even - closer to 80 is more like it. As they get worked into the grain of the wood the effective grit size is going to change quite a bit - thinning the back bevel with a bit of elbow grease should help as a prep for grinding the edge and cracking some of the larger grains down to a more civilized size.

I don't doubt that at all. I've generally shied away from edge-leading on wood or anything else that's a 'softer' substrate than the blade itself. I seem to have a tendency to dig into the wood on an errant pass or two (especially when 'scrubbing'), which then leaves some notches or grooves to get in the way. I still have an oak strop w/diamond compound on it, that needs to be re-sanded flush, because I got a little too carried with my back & forth on it, when polishing a bevel.

With the sandstone that I tried, edge-leading/scrubbing also tended to excavate more of the stone away. Great slurry, but my stone is disappearing pretty fast; I need to go hunting for another piece. I also noticed that my edges seemed to get a bit banged up by the grit, on edge-leading; didn't sharpen up as well. Like you say, for heavier grinding of bevels, it should work. But, I'd still prefer to refine with trailing strokes only.

I haven't tried it yet, but the slurry from the sandstone should work real well on a board as well. When wet, the stone can simply be rubbed on any other surface to transfer the grit. I did this with a cheap old paddle-strop, on leather, and it laid down a very uniform layer of mud on the strop. That particular strop worked great for de-burring an edge, but seemed to be limited as to how refined the edge could get beyond that. If not taken too far, it can leave some very nice 'bite' in the edges of carbon blades in particular.


David

 

[jimh0220]

I wear sandpaper underwear. Takes care of those certain unpleasant itches. Can I use it? I can go commando.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I don't doubt that at all. I've generally shied away from edge-leading on wood or anything else that's a 'softer' substrate than the blade itself. I seem to have a tendency to dig into the wood on an errant pass or two (especially when 'scrubbing'), which then leaves some notches or grooves to get in the way. I still have an oak strop w/diamond compound on it, that needs to be re-sanded flush, because I got a little too carried with my back & forth on it, when polishing a bevel.

With the sandstone that I tried, edge-leading/scrubbing also tended to excavate more of the stone away. Great slurry, but my stone is disappearing pretty fast; I need to go hunting for another piece. I also noticed that my edges seemed to get a bit banged up by the grit, on edge-leading; didn't sharpen up as well. Like you say, for heavier grinding of bevels, it should work. But, I'd still prefer to refine with trailing strokes only.

I haven't tried it yet, but the slurry from the sandstone should work real well on a board as well. When wet, the stone can simply be rubbed on any other surface to transfer the grit. I did this with a cheap old paddle-strop, on leather, and it laid down a very uniform layer of mud on the strop. That particular strop worked great for de-burring an edge, but seemed to be limited as to how refined the edge could get beyond that. If not taken too far, it can leave some very nice 'bite' in the edges of carbon blades in particular.


David

Yeah, very easy to dig into the wood if overly enthusiastic . I found that by adding more abrasive I mostly 'float' on the top of the grit and only have to really pay attention when the grit size gets pretty small. 220 SiC, black emery, even 600 grit SiC no problems. Flexcut, white AlumOx - then I have to start being real careful or I'll dig in no matter how thick I make the mud. I can get a pretty good edge from the black compound, but nothing you could shave your face with unless stropped heavily afterward. I'm very happy with the edges I get using Flexcut on an oak board - scrub to start and finish with trailing strokes. Most times I don't even strop on newspaper to finish.

Like I said, I'm going to give this a try next time I'm backpacking - not for a couple more months. Find a relatively flat rock, or split a smaller log down and smooth it out somewhat - sand it with a rock if necessary. Apply some river grit - maybe manufacture some smaller grit by rubbing two rocks together if nothing else is available. Finish it off with ashes from the fire stropped on some smooth tree bark. It should work pretty well on the relatively soft and simple carbon steel of my machete. My goal is for it to shave arm hair fairly well and be burr free to the unaided eye. There will be a write up with pics of course...

 

[David Martin]

When I first tried the sharpening board I struggled. Second, attempt it worked better using more slurry and taking more time, working at it. So, it can work. I would then strop on the hardwood ash to refine it. Perhaps a lot. NO, kazillion grit sharpening going on it this scenario. Plus, going out with a knife of 1095 steel would be much better than one of the super steels which held a lot of vanadium in it's mix. DM

 

[Magnaminous_G]

You'd have a Glock with 27 rounds of ammo

In that case, I know what to do. I'd cover myself with mud and lie in wait. The next guy who came through the trail would get his clothing, boots, and gear stolen by me at gunpoint. At the end of times, survival trumps everything.

Maybe I ought to try to go out in the woods and play around with rocks and see what kinda edges I can get.

Butt naked, and only a knife and a Glock. If you can find adequate shelter, build a fire, and improvise clothing, then -- and only then -- do I believe you actually have a chance to survive your end of times scenario. Like I said in my above post, getting a knife sharp would be the least of your worries in such a scenario. Of course, if you have Chuck with you, your survival is guaranteed.

 

[retrobass]

Like I said, I'm going to give this a try next time I'm backpacking - not for a couple more months. Find a relatively flat rock, or split a smaller log down and smooth it out somewhat - sand it with a rock if necessary. Apply some river grit - maybe manufacture some smaller grit by rubbing two rocks together if nothing else is available. Finish it off with ashes from the fire stropped on some smooth tree bark. It should work pretty well on the relatively soft and simple carbon steel of my machete. My goal is for it to shave arm hair fairly well and be burr free to the unaided eye. There will be a write up with pics of course...

Looking forward to it

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I always have my DMT sets of credit card sharpener, plus my EDC with me. No worries for any task that will come.

 

[retrobass]

Mag_G, perhaps my original post was too far off topic, prob good if I just worded it asking best way to field sharpen. I'm rather sure that the ability to create and maintain edges on knives wouldn't hurt my chances of survival in the myriad possible contingencies of surviving in the bush, which brings me to Beckers and in turn brings me to this forum. Its a weakness in my skillset that I hope to remedy, if for nothing more than self reliance. I'm sure there's a mass of knowledge and potential dialogue on here that will help me best utilize this skill and part of my kit.