Sharpening difficulties are they due to attributes of the steels or technique?

TheCarbideRat

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I don't have much problem keeping my blades sharp using rods, stones and sandpaper but I also don't do as much sharpening as probly alot of you guys do so my question is about what can make a knife hard to sharpen as i have heard about some knives [these in particular are 440C but comments about any steels are good] which are hard to get an edge on. I've also seen threads about how some knives are almost impossible to get an edge on or at least they are giving someone quite a challenge, what gives?
 
Soft steel can hang onto the burr much more so than properly hardened steel. The difference between 60 Rc and 55 Rc can be pretty drastic.
If you're good at removing the burr then softer steel shouldn't be significantly different.
 
Soft steel can hang onto the burr much more so than properly hardened steel. The difference between 60 Rc and 55 Rc can be pretty drastic.
If you're good at removing the burr then softer steel shouldn't be significantly different.

What would be proper hardening in your outlook? Higher Rc, the process in it's totality, both or what?
 
I was sharpening Cold Steel AUS8A today and I noticed the same thing with the burr. It was hanging on for dear life. I got it squared away though.
Soon after I moved onto an S30V folder and I think that steel performs a little better if not mirror polished (finish with 600 grit rather than 1000+).
 
What would be proper hardening in your outlook? Higher Rc, the process in it's totality, both or what?

I believe the type of steel being used and it having the optimal heat treat treament. For instance Benchmade does a very good job on S30V some other big names, okay but not so good.

A soft touch as you move into your ultra-fine or xx-fine rods/stones would take care of the burr. If not then your strop would for sure. Thats just an example of my response. I don't know if that's any help or not? :)
 
I believe the type of steel being used and it having the optimal heat treat treament. For instance Benchmade does a very good job on S30V some other big names, okay but not so good.

A soft touch as you move into your ultra-fine or xx-fine rods/stones would take care of the burr. If not then your strop would for sure. Thats just an example of my response. I don't know if that's any help or not? :)

I need to work on this it seems too. :p
 
I was sharpening Cold Steel AUS8A today and I noticed the same thing with the burr. It was hanging on for dear life. I got it squared away though.
Soon after I moved onto an S30V folder and I think that steel performs a little better if not mirror polished (finish with 600 grit rather than 1000+).

I like my S30V a smidge "toothy" - it really bites in and cuts like crazy. I took my ZT 0301 to a mirror edge, but my factory bevel BM 940 will really bite in and outcut it (on my finger anyway) :)

They'll both slice paper nicely but my skin is a great test.

I can see the sparkles of the teeth left on the 940's factory grind, it just barely touched my finger and I was bleeding and headed for the bandaid box!

I can run my finger lightly along the mirror polished ZT 0301 in S30V and no cut. I wouldn't try it with the humble little 940 S30V. YMMV
 
I can run my finger lightly along the mirror polished ZT 0301 in S30V and no cut.

That means it wasn't sharp enough. ;)

Do that with one of mine and you would be missing whatever part you ran down the edge. :D
 
That means it wasn't sharp enough. ;)

Do that with one of mine and you would be missing whatever part you ran down the edge. :D

You do some beautiful edges but with all due respect:

I'd tell you to box up your sharpest little folder and I'd run my finger down the edge on a short video.

The thing is, I have a lot of callous on my fingetips and it's simple to "trick" someone and not worth our time. The back of my fingers have soft skin and would cut easily.

I respect that you don't believe it but it's truer than the North Star. :D
 
I don't want to derail the thread, but how does raising and removing a burr apply to using a Sharpmaker? When I watched the intro DVD, I didn't get the impression that they were emphasizing raising a burr because you go back and forth between the rods. Maybe I'm way off base about this, but it confused me.
 
The biggest issue with sharpening knives IME has nothing to do with the sharpener used or the user. It has to do with the grind of the knife. I could sharpen my Schrade stockman 10 times faster than my Buck stockman because the Schrade blades were about half as thick behind the edge bevel.

That said, stubborn burrs on soft steels and stubborn super steels both benefit from diamond based abrasives. The diamonds cut with very light pressure, allowing burrs to be removed without making new ones. Of course, any carbides in the super steels can be cut with diamonds.

Alternating strokes like is recommended on the 204 can raise a burr. It's not discussed on the dvd or instruction manual. The burr will be very small, almost undetectable, and the knife will be very sharp, shaving hair on both sides etc. Jeff Clarks deburring procedure will get rid of even the tiny burr. Search around here for details, but basically use a couple of very light, high angle passes on clean sections of the triangles, then go back and give it a few passes a the regular angle. I'd recommend the search; its a little more complicated than that.
 
me2, could you Please explain Jeff CLARKS procedure for removing burr's. I have a hard time doing so with different knives and different steels. It can get pretty frustrating at times and I wind up ruining some edges at times.

Electric,
 
The biggest issue with sharpening knives IME has nothing to do with the sharpener used or the user. It has to do with the grind of the knife. I could sharpen my Schrade stockman 10 times faster than my Buck stockman because the Schrade blades were about half as thick behind the edge bevel.

That said, stubborn burrs on soft steels and stubborn super steels both benefit from diamond based abrasives. The diamonds cut with very light pressure, allowing burrs to be removed without making new ones. Of course, any carbides in the super steels can be cut with diamonds.

Alternating strokes like is recommended on the 204 can raise a burr. It's not discussed on the dvd or instruction manual. The burr will be very small, almost undetectable, and the knife will be very sharp, shaving hair on both sides etc. Jeff Clarks deburring procedure will get rid of even the tiny burr. Search around here for details, but basically use a couple of very light, high angle passes on clean sections of the triangles, then go back and give it a few passes a the regular angle. I'd recommend the search; its a little more complicated than that.

I've noticed that burrs on softer steels have a tendency to be "floppy" once I get to the point where I want to remove them. If I use an edge-leading stroke, then the burr will simply "flop over" to the other side, but if I use an edge-trailing stroke then it actually pulls the burr straight out which makes it very hard to detect with anything but magnification, but very clearly just stands the burr up on end. It winds up making a very scary sharp edge that shaves, cuts paper, all of that, but will only last a little while until the burr flops back over to one side.

There are a few techniques I've heard of for removing stubborn burrs from cutting into a piece of maple, to steeling them on a piece of soft metal like brass. What I've found is that instead of using an edge-leading or edge-trailing stroke to remove the burr, that if I simply drag the edge across horizontally it doesn't flip the burr to the other side, bring it out straight, but rather catches pieces of it and "peels" it off of the edge like tape off of a roll. Under magnification I can see there's still some little toothy parts after doing that, but I can take care of them with a couple of strokes on the strop at a high angle, and then finish the stropping at the normal angle.

I've only ever had to deal with this on 440 knives though. Case CV, S30V, Sandvick 14C28N and Buck's 420HC are all much easier to deal with the burr. However, I have had some 440 knives that didn't give me any problems, so I think that it rests in softer steels being the issue as all of my knives in the steels I mentioned are ran relatively hard.
 
The worst trouble I've had with burrs is the no-name, mystery steel used by many kitchen knives, available for $6 or less, even 7" blade santoku. Light pressure and an elevated angle, as much as 40 degrees per side, will remove them on a stone. I can't emphasize LIGHT enough, and only 1 or 2 strokes per side, alternating. I haven't used a brass rod, but my inclination is that it won't remove the burr, but maybe breaks it off or mashes it against the edge, so that it cant be detected by non magnifying means or even magnification less than 10x. This is just speculation, though it is based on Verheoven finding that steels can bend the burr over and plaster it against the edge, thus getting it out of the way, if not removing it.

I have never had success with using wood to remove a burr by drawing the edge through the wood. It does clean off the crud from sharpening, like dust, compound, etc.

I've used the trick of cutting lightly (see above) into the stone at 90 degrees to remove a burr, then using a few more strokes to get the edge back without forming a new burr. This has been my most successful method on those stubborn burr steels, 440A, 420, MS (mystery stainless).
 
I will suggest that steel leads to properties that open doors for manufacturers/makers to use different geometry.

I think people have various techniques and depending on your technique (and versatility) one geometry or another may give you fits.

To go into greater detail...various steels can be optimized various ways. If you have a super steel and you want a "hard use" knife many people will create a knife with geometry that leaves the blade quite thick behind the edge...this requires more material to be addressed when polishing the bevel (sharpening). Conversely, some will optimize the knife for cutting and slicing and leave a VERY thin blade behind the edge...which requires very little material removal to entirely change the edge bevel (and angle).

So depending on your technique either can be difficult.

Those who hamfist the knife with lots of pressure on the stones during sharpening might find ease sharpening a thick heavy blade (talking about the area of the blade behind the edge bevel), but they fold the edge on a thin blade and create a bur the size of Utah that they can not get rid of. And those that use a feather touch will find ease sharpening a thin slicer blade and have poor results on the thicker blade (because they never remove enough material to get to the edge).

Really, there is no difference in steels, technique, or geometry in regards to sharpening. The methods and processes for sharpening are basically the same for all, but there are differences that need to be recognized and properly addressed in order to get results. SEEING and FEELING what is going on is the best advice to give the person with poor results. If they do not know what they are looking or feeling for....there is your answer.
 
I don't want to derail the thread, but how does raising and removing a burr apply to using a Sharpmaker? When I watched the intro DVD, I didn't get the impression that they were emphasizing raising a burr because you go back and forth between the rods. Maybe I'm way off base about this, but it confused me.

Hi,

Remember, the video is made to address the majority of users w/o overly complicating the matter. When I start talking about burrs, grinds, and angles, all I get is polite smiles or blank stares. For most people, the technique in the DVD will work.

For us knife people, we get into the science of things.

So here's what I recommand:

Use the diamond rods or sandpaper wrapped rods to set your edge angles. In this case, burrs don't matter as long as you get the two sides to meet. So I tend to alternate 10 strokes or more per side until I get a consistent edge along the blade. This is also where I make sure the two sides are even and the grind is centered. That means one side may need more work than the other to even things out.

After the edge is set, on the medium rods, I start on one side until I get a burr to form on the opposite side. Then I switch and repeat on the other side. This will make the burr flip to the other side. I reduce the number of stokes per side and repeat. (For example, if it took 15 strokes on the first set, I go to 12, 9, 6, etc. for the next sets) until I get to a couple of light alternating 1 stroke sets. I lighten up the pressure as I go through these steps. The burr should reduce in size and thickness as you progress. By the end, there should be a very weak thin burr left.

I switch to the fine rods and start refining the edge with light pressure and a couple strokes per side. I use a good light source and examine the edge to see my progress. Once I'm satisfied that all the rough scratches are gone, I do some light alternating strokes to finish off. If the burr is still there, I run the edge lightly through a soft material to break it off. A piece of wood, the plastic base of the SM or something similar. Then I make a few more LIGHT strokes and check again. When that burr is completely gone, you're done.

If you're looking to go even further, break out the UF rods and repeat the steps from the fine rods. We're using even less pressure and now we're trying to prevent a burr from ever forming. When you're done, you should be able to easily pop hairs and even whittle hair.

I won't get into stropping since that involves a whole new set of techniques. If you do a proper job on the UF rods, it basically does the same thing as stropping.

My best tool for checking the edge has been to use a pocket microscope to check my edges through the process. A jeweler's loupe is almost as good.
 
me2, could you Please explain Jeff CLARKS procedure for removing burr's. I have a hard time doing so with different knives and different steels. It can get pretty frustrating at times and I wind up ruining some edges at times.

Electric,

Another post for a specific topic. My method is modified a little from Jeff's original, so you may want to search out the "right" way. But, here's how I do it, and how I use the 204 in general. I think of it as a final finish/touch up tool mostly, though I have rebevel several knives with just the 204. When using my 204, I also use micro bevels. It takes a lot of time to use the 204 to polish all but the narrowest edge bevels.

First, get a burr formed evenly along the edge. I have used a belt sander, a coarse Norton India stone, a slow turning water wheel about 18" across, and currently my 220/1000 grit waterstone. I have also used the 15 degree/side setting on the 204 with the brown rod corners, doing 50 to 100 strokes on one side, then switching, until a burr is formed after using each side. It's important that the bevel be slightly less than the desired Sharpmaker (204) setting, 3-5 degrees or so. This is what gives you the micro bevel. If you don't have a way to control angles, its not that critical, it just needs to be less.

Then use the Sharpmaker as shown in the video, though I generally do about twice as many strokes as recommended. I do it just to make sure I get the large scratches out from using the coarse stones. You could also use a medium grit before going to the Sharpmaker, which is why I use a 220/1000 grit combo stone now.

The difference comes when you want to change grits on the 204. Before moving from the brown flats to the white corners, or from the white flats to a strop, I use the following procedure.

Whatever your angle choice, hold the knife parallel to the opposite stone, basically double the sharpening angle. Do a couple of VERY LIGHT passes, alternating, on each side. This will remove the burr, if any. Do this on a new/clean side of the stone. This maximzes the cutting action. After this, go back and give the edge about 10 to 20 strokes per side, alternating, at the normal angle. Voila, a burr free edge.

I do not do this on the corners of the stones. The small radius puts too much pressure on the edge and can form a new burr in one pass through bending of the edge. The flats are relatively small, so care is needed here too, but they're not nearly as bad as the corners. For the pressure needed with the high angle strokes, imagine your 204 is sitting on a roller skate, and you are not holding it with your off hand. If the skate moves, you're using too much pressure. This is a slight exaggeration, but it makes the point. I generally set the base on the counter and if it slides, I'm pushing too hard.

This procedure has worked on every steel I've tried, from CPM S60V to 1095. I have not tried S30V, or any of the steels developed to compete with it, though success with S60V indicates any steel should work.
 
Of course, any carbides in the super steels can be cut with diamonds.

So true.

And almost no carbides can be clean cut with aluminum oxide.

Hardness in knoop:

Aluminum oxide - 2100
Silicon carbide - 2500
Diamond - 7000
Cubic boron nitride - 4700

Carbides:

Martensite - 1000
Cementite - 1400
Chromium carbide - 2200 (so even this is uncuttable with aluminum oxide..)
Niobium carbide - 2400
Tungsten- and Vanadium carbide - both 2800

And this is why VC/WC-heavy steels really need Diamond (since no fine grained SiC stones exist anyway and they still come up short)

Getting a chip in s30v for example is a real nightmare if all you have is a sharpmaker or similar. Since all you can do is grind away the soft martensite matrix, and then when enough is ground down, rip out the harder carbides.

If you think about it, aluminum oxide is pretty much the opposite of what you could call a good abrasive for any of the higher alloyed allegedly high performance, "super steels", and aluminum oxide is pretty the only thing everyone has.

Message to SAL@Spyderco: how about you release CBN coated-rods in 1k,2k,4k or similar ranges for the sharpmaker?? You know pushing the envelope..

Cpm S90V and 15V contains 9 and 15% vanadium, you can sharpen this until the cows come home, nothing will ever happen, the knife industry needs new sharpeningmedia..
 
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