Sharpening - From Beginning to End

[CoGraphic]

One more thing and I'll shut up . Lay off the reprofiling for awhile .

It's all good to be able to hold the angle for that and a skill everyone needs ,but when learning to sharpen I would try to keep factory angles and learn to feel the bevels on the stones rather than creating new ones .

Pay attention to how the knife feels on the bevel vs on the cutting edge while on the stone it changes both the feel and the sound depending what part is on the stone .

When reprofiling I'll let you in on a little secret . I learned this when I had and used an edge pro and carried it over to freehand . On the edge pro I would reprofile my knives to 10 degrees per side but I'd never apex them I'd grind almost to the edge then raise the angle and then do the final cutting edge . You remove material behind the edge and create a thin edge so your final edge may be at 20 degrees but that bevel is thin and at 10 degrees so when it does go dull it can be reshaped in no time .

Same with free hand murray carter does this, Ben dale recommends it with the edge pro etc . Grind at a lower angle and then to finish raise the angle lower the pressure

Your good! All the more information for me will better me so yeah! And thank I will try that.

 

[Spartan00]

OK this is the last tip and I'll shut up unless you ask anything but when using dmts I always use water , more specifically soapy water .

Not only does dmt say it makes the stones last longer but I get a lot better edges on a wet diamond vs dry

 

[Spartan00]

I've spent many many years trying to perfect my freehand . I've spent a lot of hours and a lot of cash on stones .

I keep coming back to my dmts and my ceramics . Water stones are good for some steels but diamonds have a broader range of steels they give a great edge on .

I have a Waterstone collection and take it from me it's not the stone it's the person using it . A good sharpener can get a great edge on nearly any stone as long as it cuts the steel

 

[HeavyHanded]

I think one of my bigger errors is too is the pressure I use, i feel i can keep a more constant angle if i use more pressure and i find myself putting too much and have to back off. But as for the xc dmt i called them and they told me to clean it which I have not had a change yet because i do not have a brush to do so. But looking at the dmt stone and feeling it. It feels and looks as if there are no diamonds in 2 areas on the stone. How do you clean yours?

Last thoughts here as well.

Learn to go by feel more than anything else. Muscle memory is good, but if you have to sharpen something unfamiliar then going by tactile feedback becomes vital to a good job. As mentioned, the edge will feel different when running along the shoulder, along the apex, dead on the bevel. I describe how I will every few passes, lower the spine for a light swipe and then elevate it till the sensation of the shoulder catching on the abrasive trails off. When the edge is "trapped" between the apex catching and the shoulder catching, I know I'm done. I don't even need to check for a burr (but I will anyway!).

Stop often and observe what effect your actions are having.

Keep applied pressure as light as possible to maintain good contact. The amount you need will decrease with practice, but make sure you have good contact and just work toward reducing pressure as much as possible.

Edit to add:
don't hunt for the apex by elevating the spine. Reference to the shoulder or not at all, and let the apex come to the stone in its own good time. On convex edges you'll have to feel them out, but only after doing a bunch of grinding right behind the apex first, then sneak up on the edge for the least number of passes possible.

 

[Spartan00]

Last thoughts here as well.

Learn to go by feel more than anything else. Muscle memory is good, but if you have to sharpen something unfamiliar then going by tactile feedback becomes vital to a good job. As mentioned, the edge will feel different when running along the shoulder, along the apex, dead on the bevel. I describe how I will every few passes, lower the spine for a light swipe and then elevate it till the sensation of the shoulder catching on the abrasive trails off. When the edge is "trapped" between the apex catching and the shoulder catching, I know I'm done. I don't even need to check for a burr (but I will anyway!).

Stop often and observe what effect your actions are having.

Keep applied pressure as light as possible to maintain good contact. The amount you need will decrease with practice, but make sure you have good contact and just work toward reducing pressure as much as possible.

Gonna add to this the sound changes too . You get a more high pitched noise with the edge on the stone vs the bevel. You also get some resistance, on softer waterstones they can bite into the stone doing this so watch yourself ..

Also on waterstones and this is hard to put into words but when just the cutting edge is on the stones on say shaptons you push the water on the surface of the stones more . When on the bevel the water will stay in one place more on the edge though it's like a snow plow if that makes sense.

 

[CoGraphic]

OK this is the last tip and I'll shut up unless you ask anything but when using dmts I always use water , more specifically soapy water .

Not only does dmt say it makes the stones last longer but I get a lot better edges on a wet diamond vs dry

yeah I always use water too, i have not tried it with soapy water ill try that though too

 

[Spartan00]

The dawn just helps the swarf to stay on the surface more

 

[CoGraphic]

Last thoughts here as well.

Learn to go by feel more than anything else. Muscle memory is good, but if you have to sharpen something unfamiliar then going by tactile feedback becomes vital to a good job. As mentioned, the edge will feel different when running along the shoulder, along the apex, dead on the bevel. I describe how I will every few passes, lower the spine for a light swipe and then elevate it till the sensation of the shoulder catching on the abrasive trails off. When the edge is "trapped" between the apex catching and the shoulder catching, I know I'm done. I don't even need to check for a burr (but I will anyway!).

Stop often and observe what effect your actions are having.

Keep applied pressure as light as possible to maintain good contact. The amount you need will decrease with practice, but make sure you have good contact and just work toward reducing pressure as much as possible.

Edit to add:
don't hunt for the apex by elevating the spine. Reference to the shoulder or not at all, and let the apex come to the stone in its own good time. On convex edges you'll have to feel them out, but only after doing a bunch of grinding right behind the apex first, then sneak up on the edge for the least number of passes possible.

I will defiantly work on this, thanks for all the information and input! iv learned quite a bit from you and Spartan

 

[CoGraphic]

Gonna add to this the sound changes too . You get a more high pitched noise with the edge on the stone vs the bevel. You also get some resistance, on softer waterstones they can bite into the stone doing this so watch yourself ..

Also on waterstones and this is hard to put into words but when just the cutting edge is on the stones on say shaptons you push the water on the surface of the stones more . When on the bevel the water will stay in one place more on the edge though it's like a snow plow if that makes sense.

Iv noticed the sound and feel a bit, i always thought that when i was at the right angle, the sound was very quiet and smooth. But maybe not hah

 

[Spartan00]

Op do you have any ballistol or wd40 I've used wd40 a few times on dnt even on clean playes they remove swarf you can't see . Just tried ballistol and it worked even better I sprayed it on and tilted the stone and just let the gunk run off .

Do it outdoors though , I had just flattened my Waterstones and I dunno what chemical may of been on that xc but I got a Nasty odor . It only did that with the xc though

 

[CoGraphic]

Op do you have any ballistol or wd40 I've used wd40 a few times on dnt even on clean playes they remove swarf you can't see . Just tried ballistol and it worked even better I sprayed it on and tilted the stone and just let the gunk run off .

Do it outdoors though , I had just flattened my Waterstones and I dunno what chemical may of been on that xc but I got a Nasty odor . It only did that with the xc though

I used wd40 and it seemed to work well. but, unfortunately the diamonds seem to be gone, since the flat spots are still there. But with the warranty of DMT they will replace it for which i am grateful for.

Ill check out the ballistol though later

 

[Spartan00]

Did dmt get back with you fairly quickly ? I emailed them 3 weeks ago about a dmt EEF ,not wearing out but it's waay too coarse and it was some tool marks in the plate and I have to heard a thing

 

[HeavyHanded]

Did dmt get back with you fairly quickly ? I emailed them 3 weeks ago about a dmt EEF ,not wearing out but it's waay too coarse and it was some tool marks in the plate and I have to heard a thing

I had to take back an EF Diasharp due to large inclusions in the plating. I bought it at Woodcraft and was able to return/exchange it without contacting DMT. Last time I had to contact DMT directly was through email, they made good but took many weeks. I've heard they respond a lot better to a phone call.

 

[jpm2]

I used wd40 and it seemed to work well. but, unfortunately the diamonds seem to be gone, since the flat spots are still there.

One more thing from me
Been waiting for someone to address this...

Anyway, I learned long ago not to use too much pressure on diamond plates, wore out my 1st one in short order. The next one, and all others after are doing well 20+ years later.

This is the very reason I use SiC first, can use as much pressure as I want, to cut as fast as I want without damaging the stone, then finish on diamond.

Although My coarsest diamond is only 250 grit, the 100 SiC cuts all steels much faster, because I can use more pressure.

Some will say that SiC doesn't cut vanadium carbides, and they are probably right because I've never got as good an edge on high carbide blades from SiC as I have with similar grit diamond - but I've never had a problem quickly raising a burr with it.

BTW, great replies from the others.

 

[Spartan00]

Sic is fairly hard IIRC it's close to diamonds . The Sic stone I've got cuts everything I've tried it on . Can't remember if I tried 10v or not though.

Heavy handed : did your dmt plate have like circle cuts in it almost like a new sphderco ceramic ? My EF and EEF both have these marks the EF it doesn't effect anything however on the EEF the tools marks have caught my edge

 

[HeavyHanded]

Sic is fairly hard IIRC it's close to diamonds . The Sic stone I've got cuts everything I've tried it on . Can't remember if I tried 10v or not though.

Heavy handed : did your dmt plate have like circle cuts in it almost like a new sphderco ceramic ? My EF and EEF both have these marks the EF it doesn't effect anything however on the EEF the tools marks have caught my edge

My EEF has slight tooling marks but they don't effect it at all. I've had that plate for a few years and it works great. The defects on the EF had what looked like scorch spots - brownish circles/pimples - with larger bits in the center. I was going to just break it in with other stones, but I didn't like the odds of the stone still being any good after the amount of conditioning it needed.

I used to do some plating myself, it looked like the bath was contaminated.

FWIW since this is a bit of topic on the forum lately, I use SIC and AlumOx on high VC steel up to about 800 grit, preferably SiC but AlumOx in a hard binder works OK as well. After that the size of the abrasive gets too small relative to the carbides and the steel does what its engineered to do - resist wear by taking the brunt with the carbides.

 

[Spartan00]

My EEF has slight tooling marks but they don't effect it at all. I've had that plate for a few years and it works great. The defects on the EF had what looked like scorch spots - brownish circles/pimples - with larger bits in the center. I was going to just break it in with other stones, but I didn't like the odds of the stone still being any good after the amount of conditioning it needed.

I used to do some plating myself, it looked like the bath was contaminated.

FWIW since this is a bit of topic on the forum lately, I use SIC and AlumOx on high VC steel up to about 800 grit, preferably SiC but AlumOx in a hard binder works OK as well. After that the size of the abrasive gets too small relative to the carbides and the steel does what its engineered to do - resist wear by taking the brunt with the carbides.

I'm coming to the expensive and time consuming truth that water stones are overated. To each his own and as long as you have the money and or the desire to buy the high end stones to match your high end steels you'll be alright .

They have their place especially on Japanese knives but for Pocket knives good Ole diamonds and some spyderco ceramics are hard to beat .

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'm coming to the expensive and time consuming truth that water stones are overated. To each his own and as long as you have the money and or the desire to buy the high end stones to match your high end steels you'll be alright .

They have their place especially on Japanese knives but for Pocket knives good Ole diamonds and some spyderco ceramics are hard to beat .

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the biggest problem with waterstones is the sheer variety and the fact they all have their own personalities - tho this is true of all grinding media.

I only use my diamond plates on high Vanadium steels and occasionally on woodworking tools just to challenge myself making clean broad bevels. I just don't appreciate the feedback or feel of them and they don't make better/faster edges than other means except on wear resistant steel.

Most of the time I'm split between silicon carbide wet/dry on one of my boards or my waterstones. I'd use my Washboard even more, but I have an irrational inhibition against grabbing wet/dry from my inventory and coming up short to fill orders while waiting for more - at $.30 a sheet I should keep more wet/dry on hand and lean on it more often.

I don't have a huge collection of stones - King, Norton, Suzuki Ya house brand and two Juumas. The Kings don't get used much anymore, I use the Nortons on most garden variety steel, the Juumas and more often the SuzukiYa on better/higher RC steel and woodworking tools. One set of softer stones and a set of harder ones are nice to have around.

A lot depends on the variety of tools and amount of time one might spend sharpening. I don't believe there is any single solution that does a great job on everything (other than a Washboard of course ). A Norton combination Crystalon would be a good single solution for the individual, but it won't do everything unless one is not terribly picky. Even then one will need a finisher of some sort on finer cutting tools...

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Sic is fairly hard IIRC it's close to diamonds . The Sic stone I've got cuts everything I've tried it on . Can't remember if I tried 10v or not though.

Heavy handed : did your dmt plate have like circle cuts in it almost like a new sphderco ceramic ? My EF and EEF both have these marks the EF it doesn't effect anything however on the EEF the tools marks have caught my edge

SiC is slightly more than 1/3 as hard as diamond, being about ~2600 Knoop hardness as compared to 7000 Knoop for diamond. It's quite hard, but I wouldn't characterize it as even remotely close to the hardness of diamond (Mohs hardness scale often referenced for these comparisons is almost criminally deceptive, in this regard). SiC 'cuts' a lot of vanadium carbide-rich steels, if only in the sense that a shovel will 'cut' a lot of dirt with rocks in it. But the 'shovel' won't do a good job cutting the rocks themselves, at all. The only reason SiC will do a very effective job on vanadium-rich steels is because those steels still don't contain a majority of vanadium carbide content, leaving the balance of the steel to be actually cut by it and still able to form a decently sharp edge in the steel between the carbides near the edge. The notion that it's cleanly cutting and shaping the vanadium carbides (Knoop ~2800) in such steels is mostly just an illusion; instead, it's simply gouging them out of the matrix steel holding them, like the shovel 'scoops' rocks out of the dirt. This is why it appears to work well only up to a certain grit threshold, after which the SiC grains are no longer big enough to dig between and below the carbides at the surface, and instead must try (and fail) to carve directly through the vanadium carbides in their way. Think of digging with a shovel into dirt that eventually becomes nothing but solid rock; the shovel will only go so far.


David

 

[Spartan00]

SiC is slightly more than 1/3 as hard as diamond, being about ~2600 Knoop hardness as compared to 7000 Knoop for diamond. It's quite hard, but I wouldn't characterize it as even remotely close to the hardness of diamond (Mohs hardness scale often referenced for these comparisons is almost criminally deceptive, in this regard). SiC 'cuts' a lot of vanadium carbide-rich steels, if only in the sense that a shovel will 'cut' a lot of dirt with rocks in it. But the 'shovel' won't do a good job cutting the rocks themselves, at all. The only reason SiC will do a very effective job on vanadium-rich steels is because those steels still don't contain a majority of vanadium carbide content, leaving the balance of the steel to be actually cut by it and still able to form a decently sharp edge in the steel between the carbides near the edge. The notion that it's cleanly cutting and shaping the vanadium carbides (Knoop ~2800) in such steels is mostly just an illusion; instead, it's simply gouging them out of the matrix steel holding them, like the shovel 'scoops' rocks out of the dirt. This is why it appears to work well only up to a certain grit threshold, after which the SiC grains are no longer big enough to dig between and below the carbides at the surface, and instead must try (and fail) to carve directly through the vanadium carbides in their way. Think of digging with a shovel into dirt that eventually becomes nothing but solid rock; the shovel will only go so far.


David

Good to know , when I said close to diamonds I should of worded it differently I always assumed as far as abrasives went it was diamonds plates then Sic . I didn't mean the numbers were close I was saying I had thought I had always read that diamonds were the hardest abrasive and sic was #2 If that makes sense ,I could be wrong I thought I read that though?