Sharpening: How obvious can it be?

Joined
Aug 31, 1999
Messages
731
You learn the most simple things right under your doorstep sometimes.

I have briefly mentioned that I had trouble using the Spyderco Sharpmaker. Well, today I learned how in ways I've never seen described. (Admittedly, I may not always be paying attention!)

I work for a meat processing plant as a Purchasing Agent for MRO (basically-tools, parts and equipment.) A fella from R&D came to me yesterday to ask if there was a decent sharpening tool available for his boss as an employee purchase. I brought in the Sharpmaker, knowing that it would not be used in the industrial setting I'm in. I showed him how to use it, and five minutes later, he brings back a formerly "butter knife dull" blade that is hair popping sharp. DAMN!

After my inquiries as to how he so quickly attained such an edge, (after my brief "educated" lesson), he went on to explain how he used both angles and two different steels to achieve the desired results. His modification of one of the steels, the timing and reason for every move. (he was impressed with the Sharpmaker, BTW) As I pressed on for more information, I realized that he, being a few years older than I, (I'm 43) had been dependent upon the sharpness of his blade every working day for over 20 years. How sharp his knife is will decide how well his day progresses.

Right under my nose for the past 4 years! These guys actually live by the blade, and it didn't hit me until today. How stupid can a guy be?

(My next lesson starts tomorrow.)
 
I worked at a pork plant over two summers, and learned lots about sharpening there. The older cutters really knew how to put an edge on their blades. The younger punks hired on had much duller blades.

I remember one time asking one of the older guys what the difference was between the 2 steels he had on his belt. One was flat (flattish with slight ccurvature) with 4 or so deep grooves running lengthwise, IIRC. The other was a stick and was smooth. He looked at me all puzzled, steeled his knife on one steel and checked it, steeled his knife on the other steel and checked it. His response: "One is flat, the other is round!"

Just a funny story I thought I'd relate. By the way, we used Victorinox boning knives at that plant. I actually have a few at home and sent one to Phil Wilson for hardness testing. THese knives were quite soft, coming otu at 52-3 on the Rockwell scale. That shocked both Phil and me.

Farmboy, see what else they can teach you! You may get a steel and a stone just for being inquisitive!
 
He already has a "hard round" (his words) ordered for me. I think that's the one he modifys with emery cloth, but I'll find out and let you know.

I have read intensively from this forum since '99, and posted little , learning as I went. I have picked up all of the terms and verbage that is relevant to the hobby, but this guy (as modest as he is) made me feel like and absolute child pertaining to knives and sharpening. I guess you can't beat real world experience.
 
A softer steel should be able to attain that sharpness more easily than a harder steel (the difference between reprofiling a 154CM 710 and an M2 710 on a Sharpmaker taught me that). If it's being used to cut meat and not touch bones that much, it should be able to keep its edge for a while, too. Kind of like that Stellite and Talonite stuff and the new metal Mr. Clarke's been working with.
 
BaliSwinger :

... how a soft steel achieve such sharpness

The same as any other steel, even mild steel can take a very sharp edge. It is a myth that a shaving edge is a sign of a high quality blade.

... being used real world

Such knives are commonly used because of a combination of things, which don't have to do with performance. They are cheap, they are standard (because they are cheap), and they become familiar. The only advantage they have performance wise, is that they are readily filed, hence the frequent use of grooved/sanded steels.

-Cliff
 
farmboy: I'm as excited as you about your upcoming sharpening lessons. Please post as you go along, or whenever you feel comfortable. Always looking for more tips to improve the Sharpening FAQ.

Joe
 
Originally posted by CLiff:

The only advantage they have performance wise, is that they are readily filed, hence the frequent use of grooved/sanded steels.

I'd have to disagree with this. Yes, the Victorinox blades were cheap- they'd have to be! Those plants go through lots of them. But there are 2 other factors involved here. First, the softer blades can withstand impact on bone better. THese knives are used around bones, afterall. And sure, the edge might roll over more easily, but here's the second advantage. You can sharpen these soft knives very quickly, and maintain a good edge all day with your steel. Evryone in the plant who had knives had smooth f.dick steels. People would touch up their knives on waterstones (800-1000 grit) in the morning and at lunch. Other than that, a quick steeling here and there kept those knives ver sharp all day. You don't have time on a production line to stop and re-sharpen a blade made of better steel, or much harder steel.
 
Crayola :

First, the softer blades can withstand impact on bone better.

Softer edges are weaker and will thus roll and indent easier. The necessity of extreme softeness in steels for heavy contacts is a common myth, often used to promote machetes. There is some truth to it, as such contacts need a decent toughness, but this toughness can easily be achieved at a much higher RC which then adds much to impaction resistance and overall strength making for a much more durable blade. Ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243045

These were decently hard blades (stainless at that), 59-61 RC, which cut and were then pounded directly through bones with a mallet. Much harder contacts than a knife would see cutting up meat outside of using a cleaver (which also wants a very hard steel, just a more obtuse one than on a Deerhunter).

You can sharpen these soft knives very quickly, and maintain a good edge all day with your steel.

Sharpening harder knives is faster as they will dull less both by resisting deformation as well as wear, and you will not need to steel them during the day. If you do want to steel them, they will also respond very rapidly. You just can't file them with the steel - but then you don't need to.

Actually machining harder steels is more difficult that softer ones, but this is only a concern for the knife maker, not the user.

You can also google rec.knives for posts by Alvin Johnson who has made HSS knives (~66 RC) for people who work in the meat industry. I have also given much harder hard fillet knives to people used to working with very soft ones.

-Cliff
 
I learned from an old Portugese Butcher in Newark NJ, how to sharpen, but it took 20 years of practice before I understood why it was sharp,(I didn't say I was the sharpest knife in the drawer)

We often tend to overlook our greatest natural resources, our Elders,(alright not all of them).
 
Over the weekend i resharpened one of my 440C Pacific Cutlery Balisong. found out that keeping a constant angle, getting burr on both side and then lightening the pressure to abrade off the burr (instead of breaking it off) will give me the sharpest i can do.

However, any further thips to enhance this?
 
I'll be talking to him some more this week, and I know that he is going to have me buy one of the f. dick steels to compliment what he calls my "...file steel". I will need to modify the new "hard round" steel with emery cloth, by using some kind of a line and groove, then finish and polish technique,and then use both steels to finish the edge. I learned that I also have to move VERY lightly on both stone and steel, and I should know better from my limited woodworking experience. The sharp cutting edges of stone and steel are on the top of the surface of the abrasive, and to truly utilize them, slow and light is key to a good edge.

I'll be back......
 
farmboy :

... use both steels to finish the edge.

This produces a very weak edge, which is why the edge has to be steeled so frequently in use. An edge finished with a very fine abrasive, waterstone, buffer, or ceramic rod can be just as sharp and *far* more durable.

-Cliff
 
i can't quite picture that
if a knife is sharp, it's sharp ainnit?
isn't the strength of the edge inherent in the blade geometry and steel rather than the way it's sharpened?
 
A smooth steel can be used to sharpen an edge after honing and it works in a very different way than a hone. It doesn't remove metal but instead pulls/smears out the edge. This leaves it in a very weakened state as compared to a freshly honed edge, and even worse it will actually relax into a blunted state if you don't use it. The more you steel an edge the worse this gets. This is probably where the myth about super sharp edges being very weak came from.

-Cliff
 
from your description, i get the impression that steels (after honing) will create something like a wire edge or perhaps increasing the microserrations on the edge?
 
It decreases the microserrations, and it creates something similar to but not idential to a wire edge. A wire edge is weak because it is full of debris and cracks and is very uneven. The steeled edge will be very even and very smooth, but weak because it is deformed to the point where it has a permanent bend.

-Cliff
 
So are you saying that a steel really shouldn't be a part of tipical sharpening?
 
Edges can be sharpened with fine abrasives to beyond razor sharpness. Putting a smooth steel to that edge just weakens it, and even worse will cause it to now blunt even if it isn't used.

A smooth steel can be used after a blade has blunted to realign it, but a ceramic rod or diamond hone will do the same thing and will produce a more durable edge of whichever finish you want, high polish or coarse.

A grooved steel however can be a valuable sharpening tool on soft blades. Sharpen with a bastard file and finish with the butchers steel (which acts as a fine file), and now touchup with the steel as necessary until the edge thickens or gets excessively worn / damaged and then you go back to the file.

-Cliff
 
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