Sharpening is hard

[Deadhead Archer]

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There's my equipment. I have no idea what the rod is, although I can put a magnet to it and it'll stick. It must be made of steel, then.

Still, I am able to get a really sharp edge with this rod, but my stone (marked "Fine") completely screws it up.

The rod is not likely a sharpener (unless it has grit besides the ridges) but instead is a butcher's steel. A butcher's steel does not sharpen but instead straightens an edge through deformation - which creates a weaker edge on a pocket knife vs. a stone sharpened blade. Butcher steels work great on kitchen knives which mostly have thinner stock; but on a pocket knife or a blade with a modern super-steel it will decrease the amount of time between sharpenings. I would personally only use one on a non-kitchen knife if I was in the field and had no other choice.

So your knives likely "feel" sharper after using the butcher's steel as you are reforming a straight edge.

Get a few more stones of varying grit (or a Spyderco Sharpmaker) and practice at consistency of holding a consistent edge while sharpening - that is the key. Another common newbie mistake that I also made was sharpening at too steep an edge and not actually hitting the edge - putting black marker on the edge will help you to see if you are hitting the edge or are scraping the shoulders.

It helps to practice on a beater blade until you get the feel for it.

Edited to add: Also, you will find that sharpening a tanto like the one pictured to be a little difficult as you have 2 edges to sharpen, the tip and the belly. If you include the serrations (which you'll need a different sharpener for, like the Sharpmaker) you have 3 separate edges to sharpen on that knife. For simplicity's sake, try practicing with a drop point or something that has more belly. Good luck!

 

[Salamander42]

I used to use a red DMT pocket sharpener as my only sharpener and after a good bit of practice I could consistently get a shaving sharrp edge on most of my knives with it. I could still feel that the edge was a little rough and I certainly wouldn't want to try shaving my face with it but it would take hair off of my arm or leg pretty easily. I now go up to a green DMT stone and it definitely shaves easier but I still haven't achieved that "hair popping" level that some folks here talk about. I think I need to make a strop and get the paste or whatever people use to charge it with in order to get to that level. Honestly though my knives are all plenty sharp enough for my purposes. I don't really need a scalpel to cut cardboard or plastic strapping at work or to whittle and make shavings and fuzz sticks when camping. I'll still probably keep practicing and trying for that "hair popping" sharpness though, just to say I can do it.

 

[the lone gunman]

the long rod is called a "steel" it or stropping on a piece of leather, like a belt,, is my final step when i sharpen,,they dont so much as remove metal,,,they just true up the edge, many times when you use your knife and it feels dull, it really isnt,,just that the edge has curled over. a few stokes on your steel will true it up again. i use my steel evertime i use my knives. go to your local meat cutter and you will most likly see him using steel rod before he cuts. if you also know a barber who still shaves you with a striaght razor he will always strope his blade on a long piece of leather. my other theory is once you do get a good edge spend a little time each day touching it up with leather strope or steel, dont let it get really dull, will save you alot of time on the stone....Dale

 

[THG]

...

Edited to add: Also, you will find that sharpening a tanto like the one pictured to be a little difficult as you have 2 edges to sharpen, the tip and the belly. If you include the serrations (which you'll need a different sharpener for, like the Sharpmaker) you have 3 separate edges to sharpen on that knife. For simplicity's sake, try practicing with a drop point or something that has more belly. Good luck!

Thanks. I haven't needed to sharpen the serrations since I don't use them (I don't really even use this knife). I've been doing the tanto point and the bottom of the blade separately; is that how you're supposed to do it?

Thanks for your input.

the long rod is called a "steel" it or stropping on a piece of leather, like a belt,, is my final step when i sharpen,,they dont so much as remove metal,,,they just true up the edge, many times when you use your knife and it feels dull, it really isnt,,just that the edge has curled over. a few stokes on your steel will true it up again.

So should I be using the steel AFTER I use my stone?

And also, can I use the steel any time after the stone without undoing what I've done with the stone?

Thanks, guys.

 

[Salamander42]

There are some opposing thoughts on using a steel. To kind of paraphrase what TLG said above, it's intended to maintain an already sharp edge rather than really sharpen a dull knife. In general, yes it should be used after any sharpening you do with a stone. I'm in agreement with TLG's opinion that it's fine to use a steel on most any knife as a final step to sharpening or for occasional touch ups. Others will tell you that using a steel will weaken the edge by continually bending it back and forth. I'm sure this is true, but I really don't use a steel on my knives regularly enough for it to have ever caused a problem. I occasionally use maybe 3 to 5 light passes per side on the steel as a final step when sharpening and very rarely will do a quick touch up on one of my knives with the steel if I happen to think about it when I'm in the kitchen. Using too much pressure with the steel and/or using it too frequently could possibly cause problems. You'll have to experiment a bit and find out what works best for you.

 

[yablanowitz]

It is a little difficult to tell from that picture. A smooth steel would be used last. The picture looks like either a rough steel (in essence a file) or a coarse diamond-coated steel. Either would work for a rough edge. Often, knives used for meat cutting are left with a very coarse edge. This works well for cutting meat and other soft materials, but it is not a very durable edge. If you are establishing a wire edge with the steel, you may well be working the burr (wire edge) back and forth on the bench hone until it breaks off, leaving a relatively flat edge behind.

The DMT Fine (red) hone is capable of taking a knife from dull to shaving. It just takes longer than establishing the bevels with a coarser hone. The finer the hone, the more strokes it takes to remove a given amount of steel. The more strokes you take, the more chance there is for variation in your angle. My edges still end up slightly convex after forty years of practice.

 

[Zeasor]

...So should I be using the steel AFTER I use my stone?... And also, can I use the steel any time after the stone without undoing what I've done with the stone?...

A properly sharpened knife should not need or benefit from steeling immediately after sharpening. I use a smooth steel on kitchen knives before each use, just one or two very light strokes per side.

The steel shown in the pictures above appears to be a grooved (not smooth) steel. A grooved steel has small grooves running lenght-wise. This type of steel acts like a file. If the steel has been used several times, try this. Wrap a paper towel around it and wipe up and down the length with a firm squeeze. Look at the paper towel. The filings you see were once the edge of a knife. The edge created by "filing" a blade is rough and toothy. I would never use a grooved steel on a sharp knife.

 

[THG]

Yes, the steel appears to be grooved. The grooves are very small.

It just bothers me that I'm able to get a sharper edge with this than the stone I paid good money for. The edge does seem to last longer with the stone, though. I guess this is just how it's supposed to be. Plus, I need more practice.

 

[the lone gunman]

I just want to add that when using your "steel" you should be ( if right handed ) hold the steel in your left hand pointing up, then slice down LIGHTLY as if trying to take a slice out of the steel. I will do 4 strokes on one side of the blade, repeat on the other side of the blade , then 3-3...2-2...1-1, on a leather strope you go the other way.go slow. In my way of thinking is that you dont really need to (pop Hairs ) to have a usefull edge that will serve you well in the field so dont worry to much about shaving hairs . some may dissagree, thats OK Too.......Dale

 

[Zeasor]

Yes, the steel appears to be grooved. The grooves are very small...It just bothers me that I'm able to get a sharper edge with this than the stone I paid good money for. The edge does seem to last longer with the stone, though. I guess this is just how it's supposed to be. Plus, I need more practice.

"It just bothers me that I'm able to get a sharper edge" How are you determining this. Your grooved steel is basically a file. The toothy edge it leaves will "feel" sharper to the skin because the larger teeth grab the skin readily. The stone creates an edge with smaller teeth which may not fold over as easily, thus the edge lasts longer.

 

[Raymond1000]

I just want to add that when using your "steel" you should be ( if right handed ) hold the steel in your left hand pointing up, then slice down LIGHTLY as if trying to take a slice out of the steel. I will do 4 strokes on one side of the blade, repeat on the other side of the blade , then 3-3...2-2...1-1, on a leather strope you go the other way.go slow. In my way of thinking is that you dont really need to (pop Hairs ) to have a usefull edge that will serve you well in the field so dont worry to much about shaving hairs . some may dissagree, thats OK Too.......Dale

I was taught by a butcher’s daughter to slide the blade away from the hand holding the steel. It’s a lot harder to slice yourself that way. She also said, “It sounds funny, but you can feel when you are steeling the blade correctly.” She was right both times.

Years later I gave the same advice to an apprentice butcher. Eventually he showed me his bandaged left hand, and said, “I guess you were right.”

 

[Deadhead Archer]

Yes, the steel appears to be grooved. The grooves are very small.

It just bothers me that I'm able to get a sharper edge with this than the stone I paid good money for. The edge does seem to last longer with the stone, though. I guess this is just how it's supposed to be. Plus, I need more practice.

Don't be discouraged. Sharpening by hand is a skill that takes a lot of practice. Taking your time when doing the sharpening is the key step.

I think part of the problem is that you also only have 1 grit stone, and a "fine" one at that. If you have a very dull knife or are creating a new edge profile you need lower grits to remove the steel first and then go to finer grits to remove the burr and to ultimately polish the edge. Try the sharpie marker trick by coating the edge and see where you are scraping the marker away (you can clean excess sharpie marker with nail polish remover) as if you are going too shallow you won't be hitting the edge.

I used to use a butchers steel all the time on my pocket knives until I read in this forum what they do. Now I keep the steel in the kitchen and strop my pocket knives on abrasive-covered leather as a finishing step and after daily use. It's only when I cannot bring back the edge after stropping that I get out the stones and sharpen again. You'll be surprised how long your blade can hold an edge (once you get one on your knife!) without steeling on a grooved steel.

I can't speak enough of the Sharpmaker as a learning tool, if you are getting fed up. It's a simple jig with preset edge angles that is the gateway drug to other sharpening techniques. Freehand is the ultimate skill to know, but if you are not getting the edges you want don't be afraid to try something that a large number of BFC members own. I found it a good learning tool that moved me into an Edge Pro, convexing on wet/dry sand paper, and some free-handing (working on it!)

 

[the lone gunman]

Thanks. I haven't needed to sharpen the serrations since I don't use them (I don't really even use this knife). I've been doing the tanto point and the bottom of the blade separately; is that how you're supposed to do it?

Thanks for your input.



So should I be using the steel AFTER I use my stone?

And also, can I use the steel any time after the stone without undoing what I've done with the stone?

Thanks, guys.

I was taught by a butcher’s daughter to slide the blade away from the hand holding the steel. It’s a lot harder to slice yourself that way. She also said, “It sounds funny, but you can feel when you are steeling the blade correctly.” She was right both times.

Years later I gave the same advice to an apprentice butcher. Eventually he showed me his bandaged left hand, and said, “I guess you were right.”

Raymond2000,,, you are correct in that method,, you can set the point of your steel on a table and stroke away from your hand. I stand corrected. Thanks ...Dale

 

[Zeasor]

If steeling feels awkward, here is one method some prefer. Stand the steel vertically (point down, handle up) on a cutting board. Stroke the blade (slowly and lightly) downward on each side of the steel like you were shaving the skin off a carrot. One benefit of this orientation, you can easily see the angle of the blade to the steel on both sides.

 

[THG]

If steeling feels awkward, here is one method some prefer. Stand the steel vertically (point down, handle up) on a cutting board. Stroke the blade (slowly and lightly) downward on each side of the steel like you were shaving the skin off a carrot. One benefit of this orientation, you can easily see the angle of the blade to the steel on both sides.

I actually have an easier time using the steel than the stone

 

[mhawg]

I picked up a roll of matting (rubber?) for tool chest tops and drawers at Lowe's and cut a piece the size of my stone. I can set the stone on it on the edge of the counter or table and sharpen without holding the stone with my hands.

 

[THG]

Ugh, I'm still having bad luck with this. My edges are getting "round." I look at the edge of my knives, and instead of the sides that make up the edge (the "ramps") being flat like --> V <-- , they're more like (). Well, not that bad. The knives are very sharp, though, but my "ramps" (I don't know the name; sorry) are kind of round...

I'm using the same DMT F diamond stone. Does this mean that I'm not holding the knife at a consistent angle?

 

[ss6sonola]

Your steel is the 10" Henckels Professional S.

 

[Zeasor]

Ugh, I'm still having bad luck with this. My edges are getting "round." I look at the edge of my knives, and instead of the sides that make up the edge (the "ramps") being flat like --> V <-- , they're more like (). Well, not that bad. The knives are very sharp, though, but my "ramps" (I don't know the name; sorry) are kind of round...

I'm using the same DMT F diamond stone. Does this mean that I'm not holding the knife at a consistent angle?

The "ramps" are called bevels. The shape you describe "()" is known as a covex bevel (2 covex curves). Your bevels are not flat like a "V" because you are not holding the blade at a constant angle to the stone as you sharpen. It takes practice, practice, practice to achieve a flat bevel sharpening freehand. Convex bevels are preferred by some. Sharp is what counts.

 

[yablanowitz]

Ugh, I'm still having bad luck with this. My edges are getting "round." I look at the edge of my knives, and instead of the sides that make up the edge (the "ramps") being flat like --> V <-- , they're more like (). Well, not that bad. The knives are very sharp, though, but my "ramps" (I don't know the name; sorry) are kind of round...

I'm using the same DMT F diamond stone. Does this mean that I'm not holding the knife at a consistent angle?

Yes, that is what it means. Like I said in an earlier post, my edge bevels (the flats you are referring to) still get slightly convex (rounded) after forty years of sharpening freehand. Working one side at a time instead of alternating sides on every stroke can help some. The real key is patience, especially on a fine stone. With enough practice, you can feel the difference in resistence when you have the entire flat of the edge bevel on the stone. Repeating that angle stroke after stroke takes a little skill and a lot of practice.

Working one side until you feel a burr begin to form on the other side will give you a flat bevel that has reached from the main grind to the edge. Then turn the blade over and do the same on the other side. Once you have flat bevels on both sides, alternate sides being very careful to get your angle consistent and using very light strokes. The goal here is to grind the burr away rather than bending it back and forth until it breaks off. Once the burr is gone, you have two flat bevels meeting in a clean line, which should be a sharp edge. As others have said, that edge may not feel as sharp to your fingers as what you get from the coarse steel because it will be a lot smoother than the edge the steel produces, but it should shave arm hair easily if you've done it right.