Sharpening Myths

[Zeasor]

You might want to consider calling you effort "Myths About Sharpening". The phrase "Sharpening Myths" could be interpreted as putting a keener edge on the myths.

You are obviously using the term "myth" to mean a popularly held belief that is untrue. Simply stating that a belief is a myth (untrue) may change the minds of a few but is hardly convincing for the many who will consider your claim is your opinion just like theirs' is. To be useful (convincing), I hope you will offer scientific proofs and/or empirical evidence and/or logical arguments that reasonably establish the "truths".

My personal experience has convinced me that the popular claim "A sharp knive is less dangerous that a dull one." is a myth, it just isn't true. The only support I have seen for this "myth" is the arguement that "a sharp edge bites into...instead of slipping...". My anecdotal evidence to the contrary is that when I sharpen friends' knives, they bleed more. Here, reason versus evidence, neither of which is very convincing.

If you are going to shatter a myth, use a "big hammer", don't just bat it around some more.

 

[Justabuyer]

My personal experience has convinced me that the popular claim "A sharp knive is less dangerous that a dull one." is a myth, it just isn't true. The only support I have seen for this "myth" is the arguement that "a sharp edge bites into...instead of slipping...". My anecdotal evidence to the contrary is that when I sharpen friends' knives, they bleed more. Here, reason versus evidence, neither of which is very convincing.

If you are going to shatter a myth, use a "big hammer", don't just bat it around some more.

You are so right..... Your also about to be burned at the stake.

 

[Broos]

Does that mean you have some choppers in INFI and 5160 you'd like to unload?

Doesn't everybody need 17 big choppers? Don't think I could get by with any less. Not to mention they are going to be pretty valuable indeed after the pending post apocalyptic societal collapse!

 

[SR_matt]

You might want to consider calling you effort "Myths About Sharpening". The phrase "Sharpening Myths" could be interpreted as putting a keener edge on the myths.

You are obviously using the term "myth" to mean a popularly held belief that is untrue. Simply stating that a belief is a myth (untrue) may change the minds of a few but is hardly convincing for the many who will consider your claim is your opinion just like theirs' is. To be useful (convincing), I hope you will offer scientific proofs and/or empirical evidence and/or logical arguments that reasonably establish the "truths".

My personal experience has convinced me that the popular claim "A sharp knive is less dangerous that a dull one." is a myth, it just isn't true. The only support I have seen for this "myth" is the arguement that "a sharp edge bites into...instead of slipping...". My anecdotal evidence to the contrary is that when I sharpen friends' knives, they bleed more. Here, reason versus evidence, neither of which is very convincing.

If you are going to shatter a myth, use a "big hammer", don't just bat it around some more.

its not supposed to not cut as deep its supposed to cut deeper so you can cut the idiot that jumped you more...

but in all seriousness i find sharper knives are safer just cause i dont have to use all the force to cut, if i cut my self it heals much faster, and i also become more observant when i know a knife is super sharp

-matt

 

[db]

Cliff...Free hand sharpening...convex edges...myths...
I think I've been through this before.

 

[thombrogan]

1. It is not a myth, and it is a myth – depending on to what, and how, you are using your knife. I lived outdoors for about 6 month at the time. I hold my knifes about 95% sharp and that works perfect for me (and all other people I know who live like this). The edge I make on them holds for a long time and I can use my knifes to hard work when I need to without sharpen them all the time. I can also trust the edge with my life, and sometimes I need to. People who use a 100% sharp edge in this type of life will soon learn that the edge will not hold. In today’s modern world people use their knifes differently. Sometimes per year they cut some branches, make some barbeque sticks and so on, their knifes can be 100% sharp and they will hold the edge because of the fact that the knife is really not so much in use – and – they have no demands to trust their knifes with their lifes….

Thomas,

That also depends on the steel being used for the knife. If the steel is too soft or too hard or if the steel is too brittle, it will not take and cannot hold certain edges or if too brittle, it won't survive most uses regardless of its edge.

My personal experience has convinced me that the popular claim "A sharp knive is less dangerous that a dull one." is a myth, it just isn't true.

Many of the folks whom disagree with you have had to muscle through what they were cutting with a dull or semi-sharp only to have the knife fly through what was being cut and sail towards them. A knife that's too dull to cleanly carve or cleanly cleave wood is still sharp enough to cleave human flesh.

Bruce,

I didn't think the number was "17," isn't it whatever you currently own plus at least one more?

 

[Zeasor]

...i find sharper knives are safer just cause i dont have to use all the force to cut, if i cut my self it heals much faster, and i also become more observant when i know a knife is super sharp...

I won't argue one way or the other. However, I noticed you said you "...find sharper knives are safer..." yet you "...become more observant when (you) know a knife is super sharp...". You act in a safer manner with a sharper knife. Why? Isn't it because you sense it is more dangerous?

 

[Justabuyer]

I won't argue one way or the other. However, I noticed you said you "...find sharper knives are safer..." yet you "...become more observant when (you) know a knife is super sharp...". You act in a safer manner with a sharper knife. Why? Isn't it because you sense it is more dangerous?

LOL.........

 

[Zeasor]

LOL.........

I'm cruisin' for a bruisin' aren't I.

 

[EdgePal]

Thom, yes, of cause, steel quality is one detail along many other details.

My point was really that a myth in one place on earth is not necessary a myth in other places…

· I think it is a very big myth - that knifes always shall be shaving sharp to be functional…


Thomas

 

[SR_matt]

I won't argue one way or the other. However, I noticed you said you "...find sharper knives are safer..." yet you "...become more observant when (you) know a knife is super sharp...". You act in a safer manner with a sharper knife. Why? Isn't it because you sense it is more dangerous?

that is a good question to ask, its not so much it the using as much as it is in the opening, closing, and cleaning of the knife.

i guess it really comes to the way one looks at the issue, while a sharp knife will cut you more easily, like said you wont have to muscle through and slip, but also you may be more observant and also if you cut your self the would should heal better and faster because it should approximate more cleanly.

-matt

 

[HoB]

My point was really that a myth in one place on earth is not necessary a myth in other places…

Thomas

I have to heartily disagree with this statement and everything connected with it. A myth is a myth is a myth, no matter where..... You are saying that fundamental laws are different in Sweden than in they are in the US. Maybe gravitation acts differently as well? You also say that you use a 20 deg included edge, yet you know that most manufactures have factory angles in excess of 30 or even 40 deg (and you know that Vivi was referring to that). Yet you claim that those factory angles are just fine and should be maintained without saying under what conditions. Either you have a much better steel in your knives, or steels take a much finer edge in Sweden.....or your statement is a contradiction.

Maybe there is a language problem here. Myth has been used here as the second of the following descriptions, NOT as the first:
------------------
myth |miθ|
noun
1 a traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
• such stories collectively : the heroes of Greek myth.
2 a widely held but false belief or idea : he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous | there is a popular myth that corporations are big people with lots of money.
• a misrepresentation of the truth : attacking the party's irresponsible myths about privatization.

 

[FoxholeAtheist]

The phrase "A sharp knife is safer than a dull one" is true, but a shortened form of the complete saying, which is "A properly used sharp knife is safer than a dull one." I mean, obviously a 1/2" diameter piece of round bar stock is safer than a shaving sharp kitchen knife, but it won't cut a damn thing except mashed potatoes or jello. The problem lies between these two extremes. Most non-knife people get used to the sharpness level of their knife-like-objects and start to do really stupid things with them because it's relatively safe to do so. Cutting apples in half in their hands... things like that that nobody with any sense at all would do with, say, one of Thom's kitchen knives. (This is why when you sharpen your friend's knives, the friends tend to bleed more... they're not using the knife properly.) On the other hand, if you are using a knife properly, with a cutting board, paying attention to the blade, etc, a sharp knife will perform the same task as a dull one with less force required, thus leading to greater control of the blade. Since I'm assuming we're not talking about emo kids here, greater control will mean less self-cutting.

 

[EdgePal]

No, I do not think that a myth is a myth is a.. We can have a myth about America here in Sweden and our myth can be a fact in America. The difference between them in knowledge - or lack of knowledge about facts.

No, the law of physics is world wide and it includes us all.

Edges in US holds often 30 – 40 degrees. Edges in Scandinavia are around 20 degrees. That is a fact.
Why US edges holds so much higher angle I do not know – but – I believe that all traditional knife designs is coming from the use of the knife, the material there is in the culture, the game they hunt or not hu8nt and the fish they catch or not catch – and the climate they life in.

Traditional design is often very old. The Scandinavian type of knife is at least 1000 years old. So, for 1000 years we have used knifes with about 20 degrees edge angle (10+10).
Based on that, US edge angles is 30-40 degrees. To find out why, I think we must go back and se the material you cut, slice and chop, the game you hunt, the fish you catch and the climate you live in because this is the thing who demands the edge angle and the blade shape.

I have hard times to believe that we really use our knifes differently – I think that what we use the knife to do is different.

That is also why I say that keep the edge angle there is on the knife because the knife producer have calculated the best possible edge angle for just this blade design.
Then, all people do not use their knifes in the same way. If someone like to change the edge angle on his knife – he shall of cause do that. Knifes are personal tools.

From the beginning (stone age) people have three different stone tools, one to penetrate, one to skin with and the third to slice with. Then come bronze and they put this three tools together and got the knife blades we have today = knifes is the first multi tools there was in the world.

If a culture do not need to penetrate things, there knifes have no tip on there blades. Cultures who hunt big game a lot have big belly’s on there knifes. People who slice a lot have long straight part on the blades. If the material they work in is for example hard type of wood, they use high edge angles, is it soft wood, the edge angle is low on their knifes.
Cultures who both hunt, fish and work a lot in soft wood have medium belly’s, rather sharp and pointy tips and a straight part of the edge, so long as it is needed to handle the parts of wood they work with – (as for example, the Scandinavian blade design).

Then the steel quality, it is just one thing of a lot of things who decide the design of knife blades and the edge angle.
Also the climate where the knife is used demands some extra thinking because metal works differently in minus 50 centigrade then in + 50 centigrade.

If you study Arabian knifes and Asian knifes you also find that the design and use of the knifes is very different from our cultures knifes. Before we call something a myth I think it is nice to first really study all different types of knifes there are on earth because there is thousands of different knife designs out there, and every one of them is design for often a very special type of use – or combination of use, from the Inuit Uluu to the Indonesian wave knife.

So, what is a myth in US can really be a fact somewhere else – and, of cause, vice verse.

We have probably a language problem. I have no value in English words, sometimes I do not understand some words and try to find out what they stand for. So, perhaps I misunderstand things sometime, sorry about that. But, as I se it we discuss as friends.

Thomas

 

[db]

I believe that most knife producers, factories, give very little thought to what edge angle they put on any of their knives. I guess I'd call that a myth that the factory edge is the correct edge.

 

[SR_matt]

Thomas (edgepal), you bring up a very good point and i think that is a god way to look at it. if there is in any way a language misunderstanding i think it is more with us native english speakers since we have used the word myth for so long we do not necessarily think of it as the dictionary definition but in a way we have used it and have seen it used in everyday speak.

-matt

 

[Dog of War]

Myth is a myth ith a myth ... aaah, I'm thtarting to lithp!

 

[EdgePal]

Db, if a knife producer do not care about the edge angle on the knifes he produce, then we all must try to understand why he produce knifes at all?

If he do not care – he just produce something for the money he can get out of it and he do not care if his product is working or not. I think that type of producer will disappear from the market rather fast because a customer will only by one knife from him. He get a bad reputation fast. (Depending on if his customers really know how a knife really shall work).

We must also understand that there are some producers like this – and they survive. I think it is mostly because they produce very good looking knifes. In my mind, it is more or less useless knifes – but they are really fancy! Often that type of knife young people by as their first knife – and then they get problem with the function and they are working to make a new edge on them…

Most knife producers design a knife with handle, blade shape, blade thickness edge angle and all. It can take 2-3 years and more to design a good functional knife and it is design in fraction of an mm in precision. Responsible knife producers do this.

My opinion, after 50 years of working with knifes, is that most young people by knifes they think is cool or good-looking in first hand. For them is a knife just a knife. They do not understand that the need they have demands a special design of the blade.
I have seen some young moose hunters carrying fishing knifes with nearly no belly at all. I have also seen camouflage daggers in the same situation – and the man who carried it say that this knife is perfect for skinning moose… You understand my point?

Most people think that a knife is a knife and they decide if it is a good or bad knife depending on how the knife works for them – instead of understanding blade design and by the correct knife he need for his use.

Look at knifes and “read the blade design”. To make it easy, sharp point and small belly = fishing knife. Big and long belly = hunting knife. Then comes other things, blade thickness, how wide the blade is and so on. When you understand all this, you can read a blade and also understand if this knife fits you.

A knife is just a tool, nothing else. I do not think you by fancy good looking screwdrivers or a very special glamorous hammer. You by a screwdriver you think work for just you, and a hammer you think will work for just you. Think about knifes in the same way, they are just tools. They shall perform something and to do that, the design must be functional for just this. In second hand, if the tool you by is also nice looking, that is nice – but the function is the main thing.

So, I think you shall ask what edge angle there is on the knife you shall by. If the producer cat tell you that – do not by the knife!.

Thomas

 

[EdgePal]

Srmatt, to write and speak in a languish you is not your own languish is a problem for most people. Words is missing and you need to “write around” things and must try to make descriptions in strange ways. There is also a problem with value of words, for example: myth (myt in Swedish). Then there is a problem with changing meanings in words. For me a myth is a myth and in my languish a myt can beat least 2 different things. I do not know if myth in English have 2 or 3 different meanings, my English is not good an off to understand that.

I do not know if an English reader of what I have written, “feel” in my way of write that I am a good guy - or a asshole. Perhaps a reader get an impression that I am a “vice guy” and then he do not like what I write because he do not like me. I do not know those things, just because my English is not good an off.

So, misunderstandings is normal I think. I misunderstand what I read and some of you misunderstand what I write.

I like to “play with words” in my own languish, it is a part of my humor – but I cannot do that in English (nice for you guys). I feel handicapped and limited because I cannot describe everything I like to describe in a proper way. Sometimes I like to give my point of wiew – but I do not because of lack of words.

But, you can always learn Swedish? Then we can talk…

Thomas

 

[Fluffster]

EdgePal,

As one Scandinavian word-playing polyglot to another, smileys really help when communicating with native anglophones on the internet

My English is not perfect but with the help of smileys I can usually avoid unnecessary fights

This is especially important when our vocabulary and grammar is good enough to pass as a (perhaps uneducated) native, but the *feel* is slippery and nuances are unnoticed or imagined. Northen Europeans often come across as distant and aloof when conversing in English.