Sharpening notch, tell me why you like or dislike them

[Jason B.]

As the title says,

This spawned from a Spyderco sub forum thread found here

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1258700-Endura-5-ever-coming-out

My opinion of a sharpening notch can be found in that thread too, but to sum it up I think they are useless. I have created this thread in trying to understand why so many like the sharpening notch and when you have a knife without one what troubles does it cause you in sharpening.

 

[singularity35]

I don't like the standard semi circle ones. They tend to snag in what I cut. I do however, do this with either a diamond file or with my edge pro so I can get to the whole edge.

 

[Jason B.]

But Why, why is it difficult to reach this area?

 

[dr_fosg8]

I like them on my blades. For the ones I have bought without one I have cut one in similar to what is on an SAK blade, just a small half v. I prefer to have one due to rounding off the edges of the stones on my blades that don't have one.

 

[Ernie1980]

I like a sharpening notch, and will add one to a blade that doesn't come with one. On a non-notched blade, I have trouble getting the whole edge sharp. Also, after time and lots of sharpenings the base of the blade develops a curve that I don't like visually.
I have never had a problem with things snagging in the notch like others have stated, so for me the negatives simply aren't there. On a side note, I only like a triangle or V shaped notch, not the round one.
Edit to add: I think a lot of my issues come from makers who can't seem to grind the edge of the blade all the way down the length. I don't like buying a 3" bladed knife and having 2 1/2 inches of actual sharp cutting edge.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I could do without them. On the knives of mine that have them, the only time I'm consciously aware of their presence is when they snag on something I'm cutting; and that just annoys me. To me, that sort of defeats the purpose of it being there, if only comparing to a blade without it, on which a portion of the edge near the ricasso may be too thick to put a decent edge on. Either way, you effectively lose cutting edge length; but, at least a thick & blunt section at the rear won't literally stop the cut in it's tracks, like a notch or choil will, and instead just slides over the material being cut.

I'd rather see a manufacturer design (& execute) an edge grind that doesn't thicken needlessly or excessively near the ricasso*, which leaves it difficult to thin out & sharpen. If they did that more consistently, there's not much need for a sharpening notch or choil at the rear of the edge anyway.

( * = I'm currently examining the edges on two Spydercos of mine: a Manix2 in S90V, and a PM in CPM-D2. Neither has a sharpening notch, and both have nice, thin grinds to the full length of the cutting edge; so I know it can be done, if they make an effort. Both of these knives' edge grinds are good enough that I haven't felt compelled to rebevel or alter them at all; that's saying something. )


David

 

[abizdafuzz]

I've never really known the purpose of the notch other than getting caught on things I'm trying to cut like string or smaller objects. Now, knowing what they are for I can understand the idea but I've been able to sharpen many knives w/o it and had no issues.

But, that's just my $0.02, and YMMV.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I don't like the standard semi circle ones. They tend to snag in what I cut. I do however, do this with either a diamond file or with my edge pro so I can get to the whole edge.

If that is a sharpened notch, it is an excellent evolution of the choil, thank you for that!

Spyderco is better at grinding the edge all the way to the choil without a notch than any other production company I've come across, but a great many (especially Kershaw) just leave the last 1/4" or more of blade edge unsharpened and thick such that it is a challenge to grind down. Producers that use the notch tend to achieve a fully sharpened edge with uniform bevel-angle that is easy to restore or reset as needed. I prefer a fully sharpened edge that is easy to restore. But I agree, a semi-circle choil will snag whereas a "ramped" notch can allow the material to slide up onto the edge (still not as good as a sharpened notch). Then there are the large "finger" choils which extend the length of the handle and encourage users to work the blade heel. *shrug*

 

[me2]

I generally like them, though if a knife doesn't have one, I won't necessarily add one unless sharpening clear to the plunge becomes an issue. Spyderco does generally do a very good job of grinding/sharpening like this. I only added one to my Delica recently, as it has thickened due to frequent sharpening almost to the point of not carrying it. The semi-circle ones are a little grabby, and I'll use an old Sharpmaker medium triangle to add a ramped one or change a semi-circular one.

 

[Jason B.]

I could do without them. On the knives of mine that have them, the only time I'm consciously aware of their presence is when they snag on something I'm cutting; and that just annoys me. To me, that sort of defeats the purpose of it being there, if only comparing to a blade without it, on which a portion of the edge near the ricasso may be too thick to put a decent edge on. Either way, you effectively lose cutting edge length; but, at least a thick & blunt section at the rear won't literally stop the cut in it's tracks, like a notch or choil will, and instead just slides over the material being cut.

I'd rather see a manufacturer design (& execute) an edge grind that doesn't thicken needlessly or excessively near the ricasso*, which leaves it difficult to thin out & sharpen. If they did that more consistently, there's not much need for a sharpening notch or choil at the rear of the edge anyway.

( * = I'm currently examining the edges on two Spydercos of mine: a Manix2 in S90V, and a PM in CPM-D2. Neither has a sharpening notch, and both have nice, thin grinds to the full length of the cutting edge; so I know it can be done, if they make an effort. Both of these knives' edge grinds are good enough that I haven't felt compelled to rebevel or alter them at all; that's saying something. )


David

It's one of the reasons I like Spyderco, they have good grinds so I was a bit baffled by the suggestion to put a sharpening notch on a Endura.

In these few post's I have gained some good insight to why sharpening notches are liked or set in place. Unfortunately, it's seem's to be a fix for a blade grind issue. For some knives I believe it has a lot to do with aesthetics, some knives wouldn't look right with them and others wouldn't look right without them.

 

[singularity35]

But Why, why is it difficult to reach this area?

Hhhhmm, without doing that notchy thingy, I can still reach that area but find that sometimes grind a recurve into the edge just in front of the unsharpened heel.

 

[singularity35]

If that is a sharpened notch, it is an excellent evolution of the choil, thank you for that!

Spyderco is better at grinding the edge all the way to the choil without a notch than any other production company I've come across, but a great many (especially Kershaw) just leave the last 1/4" or more of blade edge unsharpened and thick such that it is a challenge to grind down. Producers that use the notch tend to achieve a fully sharpened edge with uniform bevel-angle that is easy to restore or reset as needed. I prefer a fully sharpened edge that is easy to restore. But I agree, a semi-circle choil will snag whereas a "ramped" notch can allow the material to slide up onto the edge (still not as good as a sharpened notch). Then there are the large "finger" choils which extend the length of the handle and encourage users to work the blade heel. *shrug*

Thanks, but I can't take credit. I just saw it somewhere here and I tried it and it worked for me. I don't what it's called but it allows me to reach the heel without over grinding(and making a recurve) the area in front.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Jason,

I use similar to Chuck. Reason is thickening nearing ricasso makes sharpening full edge becoming difficult. You may want to check Unit's youtube (ewerstruly) that explains it better.

Perhaps with your level of skill it doesn't matter. It matters to me .

Edit to add,
His video also explains the recurve in front of the thick ricasso area. Agree that it's more a grind issue, and David is right, if only all mfg. does it that way, it will be a big help. I also do it with diamond file making a sharp edge so that it cuts. Did it to my GB, Resilience , Cara Cara 2 & Endura. Posted the pics somewhere, but I'm on phone now.

 

[singularity35]

Jason,

I use similar to Chuck. Reason is thickening nearing ricasso makes sharpening full edge becoming difficult. You may want to check Unit's youtube (ewerstruly) that explains it better.

Perhaps with your level of skill it doesn't matter. It matter to me .

Thanks Chris, it was Unit.

 

[Threethreethree]

I recently added some notches on several knives ( Ppt, Police3, 2 Endura, Streetbeat ) using a medium rod, it certainly helps me avoiding or getting rid of the dreaded ricasso recurve but it isnt miraculous, its just a tiny help.

 

[jackknife]

I hate them.

I've used knives without them, and when I went to use a knife with them, they snagged on fishing line, plastic wrap, and jute twine. Some knives with very small ones are tolerable. But the one on my Buck Hartsook was like a tail hook on an F-14. I took a file and slanted out the forward edge of it, but eventually sold off the knife. this is what has stopped me from buying a Micheal Morris friction folder. He puts a huge deep sharpening notch on them that look llke they can snag a cruise ship mooring line!

I ask worry about it being weak point like a stress line if you have to ut a little pressure on the blade in an emergency. No, I don't like the sharpening notch or much of the bevel lines back there. Smooth everything out.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

It's one of the reasons I like Spyderco, they have good grinds so I was a bit baffled by the suggestion to put a sharpening notch on a Endura.

In these few post's I have gained some good insight to why sharpening notches are liked or set in place. Unfortunately, it's seem's to be a fix for a blade grind issue. For some knives I believe it has a lot to do with aesthetics, some knives wouldn't look right with them and others wouldn't look right without them.

Speaking of aesthetics, I've always liked the looks of this one. The radius of the plunge is very wide, in transitioning from the thin edge to the ricasso; I can see why the notch might've been justified in the mind of the designer. The knife is from A.G. Russell; the blade is ATS-34 in a very high hollow grind, all the way down from a 3/16" thick spine:


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

They are useful when sharpening, especially if using a softer stone type it can be difficult to get what amounts to a nice right angle at the ricasso without a notch on some knives. I also primarily work the edge at a 45* to the grind path, so hitting the last corner means working dead perpendicular - not a big deal but does require a shift.

In use I can't stand them. Even the V shaped ones can catch on some materials, the semicircular ones definitely will. As the edge material gets worn down the notch will start to look out of proportion sometimes. I used to sharpen them like a single serration scallop, now I just live with the knives that have them and avoid buying models that have largish ones.

 

[awestib]

It's a love-hate for me too. First off, I agree that some knives just look better with one and some better without it. As my sharpening skills have increased over time, I less likely put one on myself if there is none. If there is an issue near the ricasso, a slight recurve for instance, I fix that first before I continue to sharpen/reprofile. I have had some issue on the strop with the sharp edge leading into the notch if I don't pay enough attention.

I am with HeavyHanded on the use issue - it comes "in the way".

 

[samuraistuart]

I tend to like them. Mainly for reasons already stated. Namely......for some reason many factory knives have grinds that are not uniform down the length of the blade. As you approach the plunge, the grind gets thicker. This means you really can't sharpen that area very well. You can leave it, or cut a sharpening choil. I HATE the look of a sharpened edge that widens out to something that resembles the spine.

On knives that I make, it is a call that is made based on the overall design and look. Some knives scream choil, while others do not. And my grinds are uniform from plunge on out. What a concept. Radius plunge lines, sweeping plunge lines are an exception. They look too cool!

One other pro about sharpening choils is the bottom of the plunge cut itself. That squared off portion that can form the "guard" on a knife. If you're not careful when sharpening, you can bump that squared off shoulder onto your sharpening stone, and now it's not so square any more!! The sharpening choil keeps your edge away from that area, so it doesn't get knocked up by the stone.