sharpening question *MICRO-BEVEL*

mkjellgren

mkjellgren

Joined
Nov 1, 2005
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Alright so I'm not claiming to be anywhere new a master sharpener but I am good enough. I have all of my user knives reprofiled to much narrower than factory main bevels and can get my knives scary sharp fairly easily. my question is not so much a "how do I sharpen?" question as it is a frusteration.

From what I know and have read a micro-bevel will help to achieve a more consistant, sharper, and stronger edge, but every time I put on a micro-bevel I seem to lose a slight amount of bite. I put on a micro-bevel using lansky crock sticks set at 20 degrees as that is the narrowest angle possible with my crock sticks. I only do a few strokes with a VERY light touch with the fine rods. I feel like I am doing everything right and my results aren't bad. They still shave very easily and push-cut paper and all the other little tricks but the micro-bevel just seems to take away a little bit of sharpness. Is this normal? I just feel like I am leaving something on the table and there is a little trick I don't know about. Or is that just how these things work? Is the decreased sharpness just the trade off for increased strength? the geometry of the edge seems to say so.

MK
 
Crock sticks are very difficult to form a clean edge, they tend to burr readily. You could also be seeing an effect from the change in grit as well. Generally, since micro-bevels are so narrow they don't have a significant effect on cutting ability.

-Cliff
 
For the reasons just mentioned, you might get better results with a Spyderco Sharpmaker using the flats of the rods. I've used it that way and have always been pleased with the results.
 
I would love to get a sharpmaker but funds are tight right now and I don't want to drop the money on one. I'm thinking my problem may just be that the lansky sticks, while fine grit, are still much coarser than my hard arkansas stone I use to finish the edge on the primary bevel. Going from a high polish, very narrow edge to a slightly coarser, more obtuse edge is bound to give up some sharpness.
 
Why not use the Arkansas stone to add a microbevel? It'll take much less time than it took to set the primary even if you're going very slow to minimize mistakes.
 
thombrogan said:
Why not use the Arkansas stone to add a microbevel? It'll take much less time than it took to set the primary even if you're going very slow to minimize mistakes.
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In all honesty that's probably what I should do but with all the hype surrounding V-rod type sharpening systems it just seemed like that was the easiest, most consistant way to go about setting a micro-bevel that I could touch up quickly when needed. Perhaps sticking with freehand is the best way to go until I can get a sharpmaker

MK
 
The Sharpmaker is actually freehand, too. Instead of the stones laying down flat, they're laying at 70 and 110 (or 75 and 105) degrees off flat. Instead of a trusty Arkansas stone; it's two, trusty synthetic rubies in a variety of grits.

If you put a block under one end of your Arkansas stone, you can guide your knife at a constant angle for microbevelling without dealing with rounded croc sticks or spending extra money. The Sharpmaker's worth that extra money and more, but if you can't afford it or don't need it, precise angle control is only a block away.
 
Since hard Arkansas should be somewhere around 4000 grit while the CrockStick white ceramic rods are probably about 1200 grit, that could be the problem right there. It sounds like you're getting your blades decently sharp anyway, and your technique with the CrockSticks sounds good to me.

FWIW for adding a microbevel the Sharpmaker is no better than CrockSticks, IMO, though the Sharpmaker is more versatile. I generally use CrockSticks for adding microbevel because I like the longer rods, and can adjust the sharpening angle infinitely by rotating the base.
 
How low is your honing angle before you do your microbeveling? If you have gone all the way up to the edge at 10 degrees per side and then microbevel at 20 degrees you will see some loss of cutting ability. If you started from 17 degrees and then went to 20 degrees you wouldn't notice the difference much.

Try reducing the angle of your microbeveling. The easiest way when you are using cylindrical rods in a V-frame is to rotate the sharpener base so that it is at an angle rather than crosswise as you face it. As you rotate the base the rods are going to effectively be closer to vertical if you don't change the line where you bring your blade down. I would try and microbevel at only 2 or 3 degrees a higher angle than your original honing angle. As you mentioned originally use a few very light strokes on your white rods.
 
Micro-bevels shimicro-bevels. Takes too much effort for too little pay off to make a clean microbevel. I get a nice sharp edge on there and strop a few times on my final stone before moving to the mini-leather strop. Gives a nice convex edge and is much easier than trying to set an exact micro bevel :D
 
The Sharpmaker is actually freehand, too.
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NO! The sharpmaker is a GADGET!!! I curse all innovation and progress in sharpening ease and convenience:D

I've just recently started using a 10X hand loupe (suggested by Yazuha and others) and it works great for seeing the microbevel when freehanding. I use an Arkansas stone too, but have been moving away from it for finishing in favor of stropping. In my experience the Arkansas puts a finer edge on than the one or two fine ceramics I've used (not sure of the grits).

I like putting a microbevel on when freehanding. It helps even out the edge if I haven’t done a perfect job on the primary sharpening bevel; it’s easier for me to hold a consistent angle for just a few strokes vs. many strokes for the primary.
 
Are you sure they really don't cut better or is it that they just don't feel as sharp when you run your thumb across them. A knife that still has a wire/burr edge can feel like a razor if you run your thumb across it. However, after a couple of cuts the edge turns into something else. You might want to experiment a little and try cutting some rope with both ways of sharpening. See how it feels and how long the edges seem to hold up. Then you will know for sure whether your micro-bevel is really hurting your cutting edge.

Remember. There are two types of knife cuts. A push cut (like a razor) and a slice cut (like a bread knife). Most of the time we use a slice cut but for some reason like to test the sharpness of edges by push-cutting (paper etc.).
 
agreed on microbevels and convex edges.. the convex edge is stronger than a flat bevel (double bevel, symmetrical) and the main problem is learning to get it even.

While a convex edge isn't as easy to learn as bevels, it's very hard to beat for ideal balance between sharp and enduring. I THINK.. ;)
 
well stated mitschshrader. My sharpest edges (really not that sharp by the standards here) are flat bevels, but I still sharpen my work / EDC knife with a convex edge, I've found in practical use it holds up better. I think the people here who sharpen all there knives to some ridiculously acute angle don’t really use there knives like I use mine.
 
ninjajoe said:
I think the people here who sharpen all there knives to some ridiculously acute angle don’t really use there knives like I use mine.
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I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Some of us just don't care if those blades get worn down to toothpicks from repeated sharpening. ;)
 
Dog of War said:
FWIW for adding a microbevel the Sharpmaker is no better than CrockSticks,
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Swaim said the same thing in 1999, I always found the flats to be easier to create a stable edge. I prefer at least a DMT diafold infact to get minimal burring (nothing visible under 10X mag).

-Cliff
 
wouldn't be so quick to say that. Some of us just don't care if those blades get worn down to toothpicks from repeated sharpening.
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I see, I suppose I view my knives as long term investments, not disposable items. To each his own though, I've been impressed with the proformance you guys can get, I just dont think I would sacrafice the life span of my knife for it.
 
your knife should be sharp.
no matter what else, being sharp is part of the design.

if that means that the blades gets a bit thinner over 20-30 years? .thats fine,,,
 
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