Sharpening SE blades

[L2bravo]

I have an Endura SE. I am using my Sharpmaker on it. What angle are most of you guys using on it, for this? 30 or 40 degree? I know to stick with the white stones, but curious on angle. Thanks

Edit: I am using them at 40 degrees, with decent results.
Just didn't know if there was a better way.

 

[Jason B.]

You should only be raising a burr by running the ceramic along the backside then polishing the front.

 

[L2bravo]

I got a SE Endura about a week or so ago. When I got it, I would push cut paper, and shave easily. I used it a bunch, and it needed sharpening. I am not completely satisfied with my results. Here is what I am doing.

I am using the white stones @ 40 degrees on my SM. I actually feel like I am wearing down the teeth a little on the knife. Maybe that is somewhat normal??? As far as sharpening, I am able to make it shave pretty easy, but it doesn't push cut paper really well. I used the sharpie, and I am hitting all the serrations.

This is frustrating the hell out of me, because I am not used to being able to make a knife burning sharp.
What am I doing wrong? Am I expecting too much? Help please.

 

[rycen]

What's the steel? Are you making more passes on the serrated side then the back or even amount?

 

[L2bravo]

What's the steel? Are you making more passes on the serrated side then the back or even amount?

VG-10. I'm doing a 6/1 ratio, serrated/backside. There is no burr on the back, or the front that I can see. Thanks for any insight.

 

[bgentry]

You should only be raising a burr by running the ceramic along the backside then polishing the front.

I've seen Ben Dale of EdgePro demonstrating this technique. I think I've heard it somewhere else too. But it seems backwards doesn't it? A serrated blade like a Spyderco is essentially a single bevel blade. The back is flat and the front has a scalloped pattern. On a plain edge single bevel blade, you sharpen the front until you get a burr on the back and then remove the burr with the blade flat or nearly flat to the abrasive, presumably so that you leave the back as flat as possible.

How does this jibe with serrations then if you're supposed to start with the back? Do you grind it flat? Just a hair up (like 5 degrees or so)? Or all the way up at 20 degrees (for a sharpmaker on the 40 degree setting)?

More importantly *why* is starting with the back of the blade "the right thing to do"? I'm going to guess that doing it that way removes some extra metal from the back, and in fact forms a small microbevel there also. I'm going to guess that the rationale is that doing it this way removes less metal from the front and therefore has less tendency to grind off the points of the serrations and/or change the overall geometry of the serrated scallops. How close am I?

Thanks,

Brian.

 

[rycen]

Is this slightly used or heavily used? Try a 3 to 1 ratio and see if that helps.

 

[L2bravo]

Is this slightly used or heavily used? Try a 3 to 1 ratio and see if that helps.

Meaning do I use it a bunch? Or did it come to me used? I bought it new. I intend to use it a bunch. I would just like to be able to add to my own skill set, and be able to return it to as sharp as factory new. Which was pretty dang sharp.

Like I said, I am able to get it to shave easily, it just doesn't push cut paper with total ease. You know the deal......we always want more.

 

[Surfingringo]

Hey, here's my experience with the pacific salt. The "teeth" or points sharpen easily and quickly. The grooves are a bit more troublesome. Really if I just want a good functional serrated edge, I hit it quick and get the teeth sharp and I'm good to go. If I really want all the grooves to push cut paper (which isn't essential for any of my uses, but sometimes I just want it anyway) I have to work them individually. I do a short up and down/back and forth motion on the 40 degree sm rods. I do this on each of the five or six large serrations then hit a couple of passes on the back. Then repeat the process however many times needed. I've been able to get all my grooves push cutting sharp like this. I just don't fool with the small grooves, but if I wanted I'm sure I could do the same with them. Get a little rhythm and its not as much work as it sounds like.

 

[L2bravo]

Hey, here's my experience with the pacific salt. The "teeth" or points sharpen easily and quickly. The grooves are a bit more troublesome. Really if I just want a good functional serrated edge, I hit it quick and get the teeth sharp and I'm good to go. If I really want all the grooves to push cut paper (which isn't essential for any of my uses, but sometimes I just want it anyway) I have to work them individually. I do a short up and down/back and forth motion on the 40 degree sm rods. I do this on each of the five or six large serrations then hit a couple of passes on the back. Then repeat the process however many times needed. I've been able to get all my grooves push cutting sharp like this. I just don't fool with the small grooves, but if I wanted I'm sure I could do the same with them. Get a little rhythm and its not as much work as it sounds like.

That makes sense man, I appreciate it! It was the grooves that I was talking about, and no it doesn't sound too intensive at all.

 

[Jason B.]

I've seen Ben Dale of EdgePro demonstrating this technique. I think I've heard it somewhere else too. But it seems backwards doesn't it? A serrated blade like a Spyderco is essentially a single bevel blade. The back is flat and the front has a scalloped pattern. On a plain edge single bevel blade, you sharpen the front until you get a burr on the back and then remove the burr with the blade flat or nearly flat to the abrasive, presumably so that you leave the back as flat as possible.

How does this jibe with serrations then if you're supposed to start with the back? Do you grind it flat? Just a hair up (like 5 degrees or so)? Or all the way up at 20 degrees (for a sharpmaker on the 40 degree setting)?

More importantly *why* is starting with the back of the blade "the right thing to do"? I'm going to guess that doing it that way removes some extra metal from the back, and in fact forms a small microbevel there also. I'm going to guess that the rationale is that doing it this way removes less metal from the front and therefore has less tendency to grind off the points of the serrations and/or change the overall geometry of the serrated scallops. How close am I?

Thanks,

Brian.

In short, your close.

You start on the back at a very low angle as in nearly flat grinding the blade. The reason? So you do not distort the serration and remove the least amount of metal as possible. The only time you should grind the front is if the edge is chipped or heavily damaged, then its just a PITA any way you look at it.

 

[Talley1013]

I carry either a SE Delica or Endura pretty frequently. I have no trouble getting them just as sharp as they were from the factory (push cut anything!) with the sharpmaker @ 40*. I do around 3 passes on the serrated side to 1 pass on the flat side. On the flat side, I lay the blade flat against the stone and raise it just a few degrees. I've found that making passes from heel to tip and tip to heel helps speed up the process. I finish with the stones on the serrated side and then strop the flat side with the edge a strop. The edge lets the strop get inside the serrations like the sharpmaker stones. I don't use the sharpmaker very much for my PE blades, but it rocks on SE.

In a perfect world I would use the 30* setting on the SM as that would cause the least amount of change in the cutting geometry but I'm lazy and the 40* gives quick results. I've been using my SE delica pretty regularly for about 3 years and haven't noticed any change in the cutting ability but I know that I'm changing the geometry. If it every get to the point that I notice a difference, I'll send it in for a factory sharpening or just retire it.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I've seen Ben Dale of EdgePro demonstrating this technique. I think I've heard it somewhere else too. But it seems backwards doesn't it? A serrated blade like a Spyderco is essentially a single bevel blade. The back is flat and the front has a scalloped pattern. On a plain edge single bevel blade, you sharpen the front until you get a burr on the back and then remove the burr with the blade flat or nearly flat to the abrasive, presumably so that you leave the back as flat as possible.

How does this jibe with serrations then if you're supposed to start with the back? Do you grind it flat? Just a hair up (like 5 degrees or so)? Or all the way up at 20 degrees (for a sharpmaker on the 40 degree setting)?

More importantly *why* is starting with the back of the blade "the right thing to do"? I'm going to guess that doing it that way removes some extra metal from the back, and in fact forms a small microbevel there also. I'm going to guess that the rationale is that doing it this way removes less metal from the front and therefore has less tendency to grind off the points of the serrations and/or change the overall geometry of the serrated scallops. How close am I?

Thanks,

Brian.

In short, your close.

You start on the back at a very low angle as in nearly flat grinding the blade. The reason? So you do not distort the serration and remove the least amount of metal as possible. The only time you should grind the front is if the edge is chipped or heavily damaged, then its just a PITA any way you look at it.

Bumping this thread, as I've been testing this technique today on a Wüsthof serrated tomato knife, and wanted to post my feedback.

The Wüsthof knife has a flat back, with scalloped serrations ground into the front of the blade, to within 1" or so of the tip (this tomato blade has a forked tip). Steel is 'X50CrMo15', as marked on the blade. Doing essentially as Jason describes, though I'm using a ceramic rod from a V-crock style sharpener, instead of a flat stone. Kept the back nearly flush to the round rod and stroked edge-leading down the rod (mounted in the V-crock's base), with feather-light pressure. Just a few strokes on the flat back of the blade made a very quick improvement in sharpness. So much so, I minimized/avoided any work on the front side of the serrations; felt like it didn't even need it.

The angle is kept low enough that the serrations almost aren't felt, in making the stroke. Too-high an angle, and the stroke gets a lot 'bumpier' as the scallops in the serrations interact more with the rod (avoid this). Keeping pressure as light as possible, while maintaining the angle nearly flush to the back of the blade, really seems to minimize risk of significant burring of the knife's edge against the ceramic rod. With soft, ductile steel such as this, on a ceramic, that's saying something.

The suggested technique is showing promise to me, so far; I'm liking it. :thumbup:


David

 

[Jason B.]

To really impress yourself take it to a buffer and polish the front after raising a burr.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

To really impress yourself take it to a buffer and polish the front after raising a burr.

I have a Dremel with some 1" cotton wheels. Their thickness is about perfectly sized for the width of the serrations on that knife. I've long been tempted to use it for this, so maybe that's the next step today.


David

 

[pwet]

imho the small coton buffing wheels they sell for handheld drills with the drill in a vise is much safer, faster and easier.

i've done this before ( the dremel ) it works, it's possible but far from ideal. if you have the flexible its better, dont even try to hold both freehand, clamp the knife firmly.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

imho the small coton buffing wheels they sell for handheld drills with the drill in a vise is much safer, faster and easier.

i've done this before ( the dremel ) it works, it's possible but far from ideal. if you have the flexible its better, dont even try to hold both freehand, clamp the knife firmly.

Actually, I did use the Dremel freehand yesterday on this knife (and a few others). I use a 'Flex-Shaft' accessory with it, which makes steady control much easier. Sort of like holding a pen (on a cable) with the spinning bit at the end of it. For the most part, I'd agree it can be risky in trying to steady the Dremel tool itself while also holding the knife in the other hand. I've done that too, and I just made sure to steady both of my arms on a firm surface like a bench/table top, and keep everything slow and light. As with any powered device, a lot depends on what the user is accustomed to working with, and adapting to it.

Used with the cotton buffing wheels, if a minor 'slip' does occur, there's less chance of doing the same sort of damage as would happen with a grinding bit. And using them on a knife edge, it's important to always keep the blade and tool oriented so the wheel isn't rotating into the cutting edge, but in a direction away from it.

BTW, to Jason, buffing the scallops of the serrated edge did take the sharpness up another notch. :thumbup:

On this knife, I'd spent time a while back honing and polishing the scallops with a ceramic rod, so they were already in pretty good shape. I need to experiment with other SE blades and compounds, to get a more accurate idea how effective this will be for me. I used green compound on the wheel, for this knife, and it seems to work pretty gently on this steel. I'm curious to see how a somewhat more aggressive compound would clean up a more stubborn burr, such as on one of Spyderco's VG-10 blades.


David

 

[bgentry]

Bumping this again to discuss sharpening serrated blades from the back (flat) side, as opposed to the scalloped side.

Over the holiday I sharpened some knives for my grandmother which were predictably dull. The worksharp Ken Onion helped out a lot with the plain blades. But it turns out she uses her Cutco "double D" (serrated) blades a lot and wanted me to sharpen them. I started by looking straight down at the blade to see how much of the edge was flat and reflecting light back. ...and essentially every serrated point was reflecting light back at me. Feeling the back side with a fingernail I found that around 1/3 to 1/2 of the points were severely rolled over, producing very large burrs on the back side. I could almost support the knife by hanging the burrs on my fingernail.

I used the SharpMaker on these blades, doing 99% of my work on the back side. I eventually had to use the medium stone, as the fine just wasn't grinding fast enough. I kept checking my progress by looking down at the blade for reflections and somewhat quickly the reflections from 2/3 of the blade were gone, indicating to me that they had achieved some level of sharpness. But the reflections at the front of the blade, in the curved portion which lot of people seem to use more than the rest of the blade, just would not disappear. Because the Double D pattern is "special" and Cutco will sharpen it for free (if you pay postage and wait 6 weeks) I was reluctant to grind too much.

My question is, would I have eventually gotten all the shiny spots to disappear from the while length *and* be left with an edge that has pointy points in the serrations? My guess is yes I'd get there, but I'd also be altering the geometry somewhat and probably not have the same original pointy points. I think the only way on a really damaged serrated blade is to use the original grinding jig that produced the edge in the first place.

I even tried the WSKO on one of the blades. Running at half speed with the 6000 grit belt, I didn't get much in the way of results. I think I did everything that could be done with the SharpMaker fine stones before I switched to the WSKO. I even went down to the X4 belt and tried that for maybe 10 or 12 passes. Nothing significant changed. I think a few of the reflections got smaller, but nothing that encouraged me to continue.

The resulting edge on both blades felt pretty sharp in the areas with no reflections and less so in the areas with them. Both felt much sharper overall and easily and cleanly cut through soft croissants.

I should mention that every now and then, while sharpening the back side, I did run the front side down edge of the fine (white) SharpMaker stone in an effort to not leave behind any burrs in the scallops. I think it worked pretty well for that.

Thanks for reading and for any advice.

Brian.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

"(...) My question is, would I have eventually gotten all the shiny spots to disappear from the while length *and* be left with an edge that has pointy points in the serrations? My guess is yes I'd get there, but I'd also be altering the geometry somewhat and probably not have the same original pointy points. I think the only way on a really damaged serrated blade is to use the original grinding jig that produced the edge in the first place. (...)

I wouldn't worry too much about maintaining or re-creating the 'pointy' points, actually. It's sort of inevitable, that through use and re-sharpening, the points will become somewhat rounded over time (maybe 'bellied' is a better description). So long as the apex on the scallops and all of the rounded points is crisp, with no rolling or burrs, a serrated edge will still cut like a demon. Most of the real cutting gets done in the 'valleys' of the scallops, between the points, anyway. The Wüsthof knife I mentioned earlier has already rounded off in the points (I honestly don't think they ever were very pointy, even when brand new), but using the ceramic rods to make them crisply-apexed again is what made a big difference in cutting, even better than when the knife was new.


David

 

[Jason B.]

When sharpening serrations the first thing you must realize is that eventually there will be no more serrations.

Cutco knives are very soft so when sharpening with power equipment its important to use light pressure. I would use a 120 or 220 grit belt to bring the teeth back to the serrations before polishing. A 6k belt is not going to remove enough steel to bring the teeth back. Personally I don't like to sharpen them because of the soft steel and serration style.