Sharpening - Sharpmaker vs Ken Onion Work Sharp

Z

ZT0566FDEBW

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Oct 15, 2014
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Newbie here - been lurking for few weeks now absorbing the wealth of knowledge here.

Just recently got into knives - and I'm bit hard by the bug, gotta admit. Bought my first "quality" knife a few weeks back - ZT 0566. In an effort to keep the thing up to snuff, decided I'd really try to get serious about learning about sharpening.

Bought the Lansky system - and had pretty much NO success with it. Couldn't keep the blade from walking out of the clamp no matter how much I tightened it, and couldn't get enough clearance at the lowest setting (17 degrees) to sharpen the blade without grinding away at the clamp. Then the clamp BENT around the screw area as I attempted to tighten it enough.

After researching and reviewing, decided the Sharpmaker might be the way to go - and I've had MUCH better results with it. I've got some of my softer-steeled knives scary sharp (not to the degree I see many are capable of on here, but sharper than anything I've laid my hands on before), but the ZT, and I'm guessing it's because of the Elmax steel on its blade, has so far not taken to my efforts as well. Sharp, but not the scary edge I'm looking for.

Okay, so here's the real question for you bladesmiths and such. I've been reading about you freehanders putting convex edges on your blades, and it seems to me that a convex edge would be quite desirable on this ZT. I even tried to do the mousepad and sandpaper method - but I'm not capable enough, obviously, and had to spend hours over the weekend getting the blade back up to snuff. It's not where I want it to be, but it's getting closer...

What about the Ken Onion Worksharp? Is this really a good system to get that durable, polished convex edge that seems to be such a good thing? I'm not in a position to keep throwing money at sharpeners - considered the Wicked Edge, but really, $300 to dip my toe in the waters seems kinda risky to me given my previous failed experience with a guided rod system (realizing it's not the Lansky, but still, $300, plus all the extras that seem like they'd be a good thing?). At $130 from Amazon, seems like the WS is affordable enough...IF I wouldn't just be destroying my edge again...

So, is the WS a good system for a learning newbie? Or will I see as good (or better) results sticking with the Sharpmaker?

Thanks in advance for your wisdom!
 
You might consider looking at the edge pro apex. I am new to sharpening and I get a very good edge right out-of-the-box.

Roger
 
I don't have a Sharpmaker, but I do have the KO Work Sharp. It is precise, easy, and puts a hair popping and polished edge on a knife in a very short period of time. All you have to do is follow the provided instructions.
 
The sharpmaker is great. But there are alot of variables and easy to not get a perfect uniform edge or maintain a proper tip. I can get as nice an edge on my sharpmaker and a hand stone as many can with an edge pro. But it all depends on your skill and how fast you want it done.

With something like elmax or M390 you really need to take your time with it. I see issues for people with harder steels as they are expecting it to sharpen up as fast as AUS 8 or S30V and it takes alot more time. Patience and keeping an eye on the edge with a sharpie is the way to go.

I would stick with the SM.
Over time you will learn to master that thing and appreciate it.
 
BellaBlades said:
The sharpmaker is great. But there are alot of variables and easy to not get a perfect uniform edge or maintain a proper tip. I can get as nice an edge on my sharpmaker and a hand stone as many can with an edge pro. But it all depends on your skill and how fast you want it done.

With something like elmax or M390 you really need to take your time with it. I see issues for people with harder steels as they are expecting it to sharpen up as fast as AUS 8 or S30V and it takes alot more time. Patience and keeping an eye on the edge with a sharpie is the way to go.

I would stick with the SM.
Over time you will learn to master that thing and appreciate it.
Click to expand...

Yep, it's taken me a bit to get the tip working figured out - but I'm getting better :)

I've been figuring that the toughness of the Elmax has been the issue. My other blades are 8Cr13MOV or lower, and I've been getting really good edges (sharpness-wise, anyways - pretty ugly IMHO compared to the highly-polished blade y'all keep showing me) with them. The Elmax takes MANY more strokes to get anywhere close...

I notice you mention a combination of the SM AND a hand stone - tabletop, I'm assuming? For final polishing, or to get things going on a new profile?
 
BellaBlades said:
I would stick with the SM.
Over time you will learn to master that thing and appreciate it.
Click to expand...

My thoughts as well. It's a very useful tool to have on hand and can handle multiple types of sharpening - straight edges, serrations, recruves, etc. As time goes on you learn to appreciate it more and more. If you're serious about sharpening, you will learn more from it than the Work Sharp.
 
I have a Medium DMT diamond stone. I free hand my approximate 30 inclusive on that if the edge is off from factory. However this is ONLY, if the factory edge is not even and too steep. Then work the corners of the dark rods to remove the scratches from that.

I never go finer than the sides of the whites. I just follow that with the black rouge on my strop and finally green oxide compound on the other side. I never care to get a mirror finish or attempt it. Some where in the middle seems perfect for me.

Once you get that elmax set to a nice even bevel say 15 per side. Then set your micro bevel. Once I get to this point I can easily maintain a high end steel with the whites and a strop, just working the main angle in occasionally.
If any of that is confusing please shoot. My mind is else where at the moment.
Matt
 
BellaBlades said:
I have a Medium DMT diamond stone. I free hand my approximate 30 inclusive on that if the edge is off from factory. However this is ONLY, if the factory edge is not even and too steep. Then work the corners of the dark rods to remove the scratches from that.

I never go finer than the sides of the whites. I just follow that with the black rouge on my strop and finally green oxide compound on the other side. I never care to get a mirror finish or attempt it. Some where in the middle seems perfect for me.

Once you get that elmax set to a nice even bevel say 15 per side. Then set your micro bevel. Once I get to this point I can easily maintain a high end steel with the whites and a strop, just working the main angle in occasionally.
If any of that is confusing please shoot. My mind is else where at the moment.
Matt
Click to expand...

Seems pretty straightforward - either that, or my mind's in the same place as yours :).

Seems you ( and most on here ) favor the microbevel approach rather than just running a single bevel - which is what I've been attempting, anyway.

I just feel that, looking at my edge, it's somewhat convexed, just from the nature of my hand movement. Not hugely so, and maybe it's my imagination, but I feel that it must be a bit just from the variance in motions used with the SM.
 
There are a lot of sharpening systems, and they all work. My favorite is the Wicked Edge, but no matter what system you get, you have to understand the basic theory of sharpening and have a basic set of problem-solving skills when things don't work.

Elmax is a great steel that gets as sharp as you're ever going to need. ZT typically puts out blades with a thick, obtuse geometry. My guess is that your stone angle doesn't match the angle of the edge bevel. If your knife has an edge bevel of 45 degrees inclusive, and you sharpen with the 30-degree SM stones, all you will be doing is rounding off the shoulders. Paint the edge of your blade with a Sharpie and see where the stone is working. Adjust from there.

The WorkSharp is a good tool, but it is a power tool, which means you can do a lot of damage really, really fast if your skills are not up to snuff.
 
Twindog said:
There are a lot of sharpening systems, and they all work. My favorite is the Wicked Edge, but no matter what system you get, you have to understand the basic theory of sharpening and have a basic set of problem-solving skills when things don't work.

Elmax is a great steel that gets as sharp as you're ever going to need. ZT typically puts out blades with a thick, obtuse geometry. My guess is that your stone angle doesn't match the angle of the edge bevel. If your knife has an edge bevel of 45 degrees inclusive, and you sharpen with the 30-degree SM stones, all you will be doing is rounding off the shoulders. Paint the edge of your blade with a Sharpie and see where the stone is working. Adjust from there.

The WorkSharp is a good tool, but it is a power tool, which means you can do a lot of damage really, really fast if your skills are not up to snuff.
Click to expand...

I re-beveled the edge with the 30-degree notches and SM diamond sticks, then microbeveled at 40-degrees.
 
ZT0566FDEBW said:
I re-beveled the edge with the 30-degree notches and SM diamond sticks, then microbeveled at 40-degrees.
Click to expand...

That should have worked.

Did you raise a burr along both sides of the entire blade? If you didn't get a burr, you probably wouldn't have reached the apex.

If you did raise a burr and if you removed it properly, the edge would be very sharp. If you make a couple passes with the 40-degree stone setting, can you feel a burr form on the microbevel? If you can, the problem is most likely in the way you remove the burr. Very light, short strokes with your finest stone should remove it.

As far as the steel, Elmax can get incredibly sharp. I reprofiled both my Microtech DOC and ZT 0560 to 30 degrees inclusive, and they got extremely nice edges. I tune them up with a Sharpmaker, using the 40-degree microbevel, just like you did.
 
Twindog said:
That should have worked.

Did you raise a burr along both sides of the entire blade? If you didn't get a burr, you probably wouldn't have reached the apex.

If you did raise a burr and if you removed it properly, the edge would be very sharp. If you make a couple passes with the 40-degree stone setting, can you feel a burr form on the microbevel? If you can, the problem is most likely in the way you remove the burr. Very light, short strokes with your finest stone should remove it.

As far as the steel, Elmax can get incredibly sharp. I reprofiled both my Microtech DOC and ZT 0560 to 30 degrees inclusive, and they got extremely nice edges. I tune them up with a Sharpmaker, using the 40-degree microbevel, just like you did.
Click to expand...

Burrs on both sides using the diamond stones at the 30 degree setting. Then removed burr (mostly!) using the diamond stones. Once I felt the burr was basically gone and I saw uniform patterns, switched to the brown, then white stones.

Just spitballing, but how much of a burr should I be going for at each stage? I'd been getting a good burr on both sides with the diamond, then I seek to minimize the burrs as I progress through the finer stones. Should I be seeing a strong burr ( my term ) with each stone progression?
 
No, as you progress to finer and finer stones and lighter and lighter strokes, the burr should get progressively smaller, until it is gone.

You may have left too large a burr, creating a weak wire edge that doesn't hold up to even light cutting.
 
Twindog said:
No, as you progress to finer and finer stones and lighter and lighter strokes, the burr should get progressively smaller, until it is gone.

You may have left too large a burr, creating a weak wire edge that doesn't hold up to even light cutting.
Click to expand...

I really don't think there's a wire edge at play here. I just sliced my way through a couple of dozen strokes through single-layer and double-layer cardboard, never noticed a real increase in slicing effort, then went and sliced through some of my 4-part form paper I've got here (approx phonebook-type), and haven't noticed a big increase in effort or decrease in slicing. But my lower-quality blade does quite a bit better.

I'm guessing I'm not spending enough time on the medium stones refining my edge, since the burr is quite evident with the diamond ones, and I strive to have it gone by the time I start with the mediums. Getting pretty good at feeling/spotting burrs at this stage, and test my cutting/slicing strokes in two directions to check for a rolled edge/burr situation...
 
I have a Work Sharp KO and love it. After I set the initial bevel and do my first sharpening on the KO, I maintain the knife with my Sharpmaker (mainly with the excellent UF stones), and denim strops with compound.

As Twindog said, all the systems work (once you get the hang of them). This is what works for me.

Andrew
 
ZT0566FDEBW said:
I really don't think there's a wire edge at play here. I just sliced my way through a couple of dozen strokes through single-layer and double-layer cardboard, never noticed a real increase in slicing effort, then went and sliced through some of my 4-part form paper I've got here (approx phonebook-type), and haven't noticed a big increase in effort or decrease in slicing. But my lower-quality blade does quite a bit better.

I'm guessing I'm not spending enough time on the medium stones refining my edge, since the burr is quite evident with the diamond ones, and I strive to have it gone by the time I start with the mediums. Getting pretty good at feeling/spotting burrs at this stage, and test my cutting/slicing strokes in two directions to check for a rolled edge/burr situation...
Click to expand...


Another possibility is that you're experiencing a difference in blade geometry. I don't have an 0566, but I do have an 0560. With a 30-degree inclusive edge profile, the edge shoulders on the 0560 are 0.045 inches wide. By comparison, my Benchmade Barrage 581 profiled to the same 30 degrees has edge shoulders 0.017 inches wide. Both knives are equally sharp, but the Barrage with the thinner blade profile slices paper much better. The Barrage has to push well less than half as much metal through the paper. This is why people say geometry cuts.
 
Twindog said:
Another possibility is that you're experiencing a difference in blade geometry. I don't have an 0566, but I do have an 0560. With a 30-degree inclusive edge profile, the edge shoulders on the 0560 are 0.045 inches wide. By comparison, my Benchmade Barrage 581 profiled to the same 30 degrees has edge shoulders 0.017 inches wide. Both knives are equally sharp, but the Barrage with the thinner blade profile slices paper much better. The Barrage has to push well less than half as much metal through the paper. This is why people say geometry cuts.
Click to expand...

Interesting point. Hadn't considered that but it makes perfect sense. All my other blades are thinner - not filet knife thin, but considerably thinner than the ZT.
 
TwinDog is spot on. You wouldn't think that a thick blade profile, with a screaming sharp edge, would have a problem with paper. But it does! I've noticed time and again that I can get very sharp edges on thick blades, but they tend to hang in paper, particularly in the curved sections of the blade.

Reprofiling is probably the way to go if you want better performance from the thick blades.

Regarding the WSKO versus the Sharpmaker: They are two great sharpeners that are totally different animals. The SM is great for maintenance at a fixed angle. It's able to do recurves and serrated blades. It's abrasives cut essentially any steel. It's also slow for big metal removal (reprofiling). Even with the diamonds it's still going to take a while. It's also it's own skill set in terms of learning the 3 dimensional motion you have to employ to properly use it. I love mine and carry it in my everyday bag.

The WSKO can reprofile in a small fraction of the time compared to the SM. I've sharpened blades that essentially had no edge at all using the WSKO. It's got a variety of different belts available for it in many grades. I really like the Stiff Precision belts (Norton Norax) in X200, X100, X22, and X5. The 60 grit ceramic is great for very fast metal removal. It's also got variable speed so you can determine how fast or slowly you remove metal. I used that feature as "training wheels" when I first got mine and practiced at the lowest speed on a cheap blade, and worked my way up as I got the hang of it. It didn't take much time at all to get oriented and start using faster speeds. I like the WSKO without the guide, as I feel it's more flexible, precise, and controllable that way. Oh, and you can get fantastic edges straight off of the WSKO. Easily phonebook paper slicing and arm hair popping. It's a really good system.

I have both and wouldn't give up either for another sharpener. Unless maybe someone gave me a 1x42 belt sander and a way to carry it around for portable sharpening... :)

Brian.
 
I have both.

The sharpmaker is a great product. It is best used for maintenance as others have stated. I recently sharpened my 0566 on it for the first time and the angle matched up great. Took me just a few minutes to bring it back to shaving.

The Ken Onion is awesome for seriously dull knives. As well as some that I have had no luck with on the sharpmaker. May be a lack of patience on my part.

I am fond of both systems, but if I could only have one, I would start out with the sharpmaker and not let my blades become neglected.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the potential to round the time on the KOWS. If you aren't careful, you may notice that you are rounding the tip when using the work sharp. Practice on cheap knives before you take your favorites to the belts
 
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