Sharpening Stone - Ambiguity Hell

H

HitmanNumber86

Joined
May 10, 2013
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I decided my generic pocket stone isn't worthy of my new ESEE, so I decided to study up on stones and find one that suits me. I can't seem to find a single straightforward dealer.

I'm looking for a double sided compound whetstone, ~40µm/~10µm. The issue is no one seems to know whether they're selling a whetstone or waterstone, what compound it's made of, or whether the grain is measured in metric or imperial. Most of them don't even list microns. Some even resort to a proprietary measurement system; How am I supposed to get anywhere with that? I'm also getting sick of the obscure, subjective terminology of "fine," and "course."

Does anyone know who gives straightforward information about their stones, or could directly reference a stone they know fits what I want?

I don't want a waterstone, 'cus they're too soft. I don't want a diamond plate, 'cus of the risk of ripping all the diamond off with 1095. Natural stone is too damn expensive, and I'm not a traditionalist.
 
I'd love to know too. A lot of sharpening gurus talk about being able to snag good stones for cheap on here, but I have yet to see where. The only cheap stones I've found in person have the grit of my sidewalk.
 
By buying sharpening "stones" at garage sales (Never paid more than $1.00. The population who used them is dying out.), I have little invested in a large box of them. They are a mix of various hardness of "Arkansas" stone (real stone) and carborundum stones (some two grit and some single grit). Also some stones marked as being for razors - very black.

I would not know a "water" stone if I saw one, but I have used the Arkansas stones with oil and water. Opinions differ as to whether oil or water is needed. I use it because that is what I was taught.

I never thought about not being able to express their respective degree of abrasiveness in numbers. I just found out which I liked for a particular knife by trial and error. I found, for example, that 440C/D2 and better made the Arkansas stones VERY slow to useless. I found that Chinese cardboard is great for polishing edges.

If diamonds tear out of a sharpening medium in use to any significant degree, the product is defective. I have never experienced that situation, and I have used diamond products when in a great hurry to remove a lot of steel that could have been removed more slowly with other tools - often 1095.

I take it you did not Google - sharpening stones grit.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Sharpening-Stone-Grit-Chart-W21C60.aspx

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/763651/
 
Probably not going to find what your looking for, you seem to be misinformed on this subject.

Grits is different around the world, USA, Europe, and Asia all have a different grit system and that's just the start of it.

I could recommend some stones but knowing your budget, abilities you would like the stone to have, and if you like a fine polish or a little toothy bite will help to get us started. Also, the types and styles of knives you need to sharpen can greatly change what tools will work best.
 
+knifenut1013, You've sold me with that profile pic.

I always thought grit count was by grain within a square unit.

I'm trying to look at it from a SHTF standpoint. I figure if a blade ends up in unforgivable condition I could use a flat rock, or some finer concrete to fix it up to the point where I start using 40µm SiC, then I can get a shaving sharp edge with the 10µm.

I don't mind spending lot's of time sharpening. I enjoy performing maintenance. I just want a durable stone that will effectively put a good edge on.

I found this http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2084158/37272/trend-7-doublesided-bench-stone-finecoarse.aspx, which seems ideal, except for the fact that it's diamond, and really expensive.
 
I don't see how 1095 would damage diamond hones. I've used my DMTs to sharpen type of steel I own, from high carbon to S35vn, with no problem for going on two decades.
 
Alberta Ed said:
I don't see how 1095 would damage diamond hones. I've used my DMTs to sharpen type of steel I own, from high carbon to S35vn, with no problem for going on two decades.
Click to expand...

Any steel can damage a diamond hone. The diamond is bonded to the metal plate, and if you are too rough on it, that bond can break. It's not easy, but if you were sharpening in a hurry it's still possible.
 
Spyderco makes a double stuff ceramic that is nice. I got two japanese waterstones at TJ Maxx, but they don't have any more at any store I can find.
I also picked up a silicon carbide stone dual grit oil-stone at Ace Hardware that serves well for a machete and bulk removal.

All in all, I enjoy sharpening, but for SHTF kit, I'd gladly spend about 10 bucks on a pack of 400, 800 and 1200 grit wet-dry sandpaper and some green polishing compound. Strop on cardboard with compound. Here my thought is light, fast and effective under all conditions. (It's what I brought with me to Afghanistan for a year and it worked well for me.)

Wholly agree with the above post that the key is to know what you want and then seek it out at garage sales, thrift stores and the like.
 
Thanks a lot KennyB. That's gonna help a lot. I just have to figure out what system of measurement they're using in the product description.

My biggest issue now is finding a reliable store that knows the difference between a whetstone and a waterstone. I think I can safely assume that if it's from Japan it's a waterstone (even if they call it a whetstone).

This raises another question. Does anyone have preference of Silicon Carbide compound over Aluminium Oxide compound?
 
Check out my thread "basic sharpening with a Norton India" it might be right about what your looking for.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Check out my thread "basic sharpening with a Norton India" it might be right about what your looking for.
Click to expand...

This is what I was going to suggest. Well the stone, not the thread... But hey, pretty cool to have a good instructional video along with such a stone too.

As far as the diamond thing goes... If you bare down with a lot of pressure, that will rip the diamonds out of the nickle substrate. So just use light pressure and it should be good. I believe I've heard using water (and even soapy water) helps extend life even more, but I use mine dry and it's still going strong.
 
Howdy, you're not going to like my answers, but they are totally warranted. Your posts come off like you're trying to sound knowledgable and asking intelligent questions... but they are questions that just reveal how little you know about sharpening and stones in general. I suggest just getting a King combo water stone or a Norton combo India/Crystalon stone and start sharpening knives:


HitmanNumber86 said:
I'm looking for a double sided compound whetstone, ~40µm/~10µm. The issue is no one seems to know whether they're selling a whetstone or waterstone, what compound it's made of, or whether the grain is measured in metric or imperial.
Click to expand...

I think the real issue is that you don't appear to understand how sharpening stones are manufactured or sold. You won't find a standarized chart anywhere. The folks at CKtG have tried to make a "unified grit chart," and there is one in the stickies in this subforum, but YMMV. The second issue is that you have very specific requirements... but why? For the life of me, I can't understand why you have specific micron requirements for stones when you don't seem to know a lot about them...


Most of them don't even list microns. Some even resort to a proprietary measurement system; How am I supposed to get anywhere with that? I'm also getting sick of the obscure, subjective terminology of "fine," and "course."
Click to expand...

Most of them resort to a proprietary measurement system based on how they understand abrassives. You ask how you are supposed to get anywhere with that? By using the stones, building your knowledge base, and asking around... basically, sharpen a lot and spend a lot of time with other sharpeners. It's the only way to do it.


Does anyone know who gives straightforward information about their stones, or could directly reference a stone they know fits what I want?
Click to expand...

I cannot reference any stones for you because I'm fairly confident that you don't know what you want. I suggest you get a cheap combo stone (maybe a King 1k/6k or a Norton combo India/Crystalon) and just sharpen a lot of knives with what you've got and then decide what you want.


I don't want a waterstone, 'cus they're too soft. I don't want a diamond plate, 'cus of the risk of ripping all the diamond off with 1095.
Click to expand...

uhh... yeah


My biggest issue now is finding a reliable store that knows the difference between a whetstone and a waterstone. I think I can safely assume that if it's from Japan it's a waterstone (even if they call it a whetstone).
Click to expand...

Your biggest issue is actually knowing yourself what the difference between a whetstone and a waterstone is. Japan makes all kinds of stuff. Just because a stone comes from Japan doesn't make it a water stone. There are companies from other countries that make water stones, too. Whetstones are stones. Come on, man.


This raises another question. Does anyone have preference of Silicon Carbide compound over Aluminium Oxide compound?
Click to expand...

It depends on the steel and the knife, but the answer to that question (like the answer to all of your questions) will not help you. You need to just take a step back, get a stone (any stone) and start sharpening.


Cheers,

Mag
 
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HitmanNumber86 said:
My biggest issue now is finding a reliable store that knows the difference between a whetstone and a waterstone.
Click to expand...

Your biggest issue now is learning that the term 'whetstone' means a tool that it's use is for sharpening. A waterstone, be it Japanese or Belgian, is a whetstone. A diamond plate can be called a whetstone. A SiC oil-impregnated stone is called a whetstone, and so is a flat piece of shale from the lake shore that's used for sharpening. "To whet" = to sharpen.
From Webster:
Main Entry:whet
Pronunciation:*hwet, *wet
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:whet£ted ; whet£ting
Etymology:Middle English whetten, from Old English hwettan; akin to Old High German wezzen to whet, waz sharp
Date:before 12th century

1 : to sharpen by rubbing on or with something *whet a knife*
2 : to make keen or more acute : EXCITE, STIMULATE *whet the appetite* *whetted her curiosity*
–whet-ter noun

Stitchawl
 
I'd think a Norton India stone or Crystalon stone would be your best bet. The Crystalon is silicon carbide, the India is aluminum oxide. Both are 'oil stones' meaning they come preloaded with oil but can be used with soapy water, oil, or dry (best results with oil IMHO). Silicon carbide is faster and somewhat less refined, but tolerates being used dry a little better than the India stone. India stone leaves a smoother cutting edge. Both can be had in a variety of sizes.
 
Hey Hitman,

1) Diamond plates
I understand your concerns about Diamond plates.
They do wear out over the time, and lose their aggressiveness.
But they are fairly durable. I had a DMT from the 90's,
it has seen 100+ chisels, and planes in hardened tool steels.
If I hadn't sold it, I'm sure it'll still grind at least 50% efficiency as when I first bought it.
So don't rule out diamond plates just yet.

2) Stones.
As some mentioned before, whetstone is a general category of tools that sharpens something.
There are oil stones, water stones, sand papers, ceramic rods, etc. and all could be called whetstone.

I share your affinity to synthetic waterstones.
The abrasives are very consistent throughout the stone,
and the quality of sharpening doesn't change over time unlike DMT's.

It has its own share of problems, mainly the dishing - and you'll need to get a flattening device.
i.e. you'll still end up getting a DMT to lap aka flatten your stone.
Lower grit stones also release a lot of abrasives when you sharpen heavily and it can get messy.
You might need a sharpening station. Someone once said of a popular waterstone (Chosera 1k)
that it profusely bleeds green Vulcan blood and it gets everywhere.
If you ever get one, you'll know what I mean.

So if you get a DMT, you can pretty much sharpen right away, and have a relatively clean setup.
If you get a water stone, you might need to invest in a few extra things.

It's kind of like getting a car vs motorcycle.
If you get a car, well, you drive it away from the dealer.
If you get a motorcycle, you need to get a helmet, then boots, then gloves, then you realize you'd like to listen to mp3, so you'll need to rig that up too. You get what I mean.
That said, I still ride motorcycle, because quite frankly, it's a lot more fun.
I think same could be said about water stones.

Also, with water stones, please realize that some water stones are
"soakers" and some are "splash-and-go" stones.
That means that some stones needs to be soaked in water for 10 or 15 minutes (say, Beston),
while others you can sharpen right way by splashing some water on it (say, Shapton).
For beginners, I recommend getting the splash and go stones.

As far as having someone to sit down with you and answering some questions about stones,
you'll be best off talking to a vendor or store owner.
I can recommend a few, but I would rather not give proprietary company names on public board.

But as I've said before, for your needs, I think Naniwa superstone 400/1000 combo stone
or Norton 220/1000 combo stone seem like the right fit.
If you just search that I'm sure there are many vendors who'll sell you that stone.


Finally, if you are not ready to spend more than 100 bucks on a couple of stones, some cheaper oil stones can give you very decent results. I've worked with Norton India (as suggested before) and various variety of Arkansas stones for a good long while, and they have proven to be excellent stones.

Try to browse this forum and other internet sources for a while,
and your questions will be come more specific.
e.g. which brand of diamond stone should I get? which grit of Arashiyama's work for kitchken knife? etc.
Don't hesitate to ask those questions. I'm sure many here will be happy to answer them.

Thanks for your question and good luck!
 
xuz, knifenut1013, HeavyHanded, Magnaminous_G, thanks for all the help. Some of the answers were reminding me of why I don't hangout on forums too often.

kinfenut1013, My gut wrenched when you smashed that knife into that stone. I will definitely be looking into the Norton stone collection. What system of grit measurement do they use?

Magnaminous_G, I understand your answers, but as I said in my original post, I just started studying stoning. I also understand how you think I should build experience by using different stones, but you should understand I'd love to have the money to buy five stones from every brand, but I can't do that. I feel I can apply measurements to my problem 'cus I'm a machinist and a welder, so I understand how to apply grits, microns, and compound grinding materials. I could grind you a gauge block by hand, with the right stone, and a micrometer.

As for my understanding of whetstones vs waterstones. I found information from the local sharpening shop website of Frank Surace, knifesharpeningbyhand.com. It says, "The geology of Japan has provided a type of stone which consists of very fine silicate particles in a clay matrix. This is somewhat softer than Novaculite." I've also found this quote, but I can't seem to find the original source, "Despite being a homophone with wet, whetstones need be lubricated with neither oil nor water, although it is very common that either is used." Also, many different sources associate natural whetstones with Novaculite.

So my understanding is this:
Whetstone=Novaculite(Natural)/Ceramic(Artificial)
Waterstone=Natural silica clay compound

Is all this research wrong?

What type of diamond should be used for resurfacing stones, high or low grit?

Would SiC or AlO be better for carbon steels?
 
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