Sharpening Stone - Ambiguity Hell

HitmanNumber86 said:
As for my understanding of whetstones vs waterstones. I found information from the local sharpening shop website of Frank Surace, knifesharpeningbyhand.com. It says, "The geology of Japan has provided a type of stone which consists of very fine silicate particles in a clay matrix. This is somewhat softer than Novaculite." I've also found this quote, but I can't seem to find the original source, "Despite being a homophone with wet, whetstones need be lubricated with neither oil nor water, although it is very common that either is used." Also, many different sources associate natural whetstones with Novaculite.

So my understanding is this:
Whetstone=Novaculite(Natural)/Ceramic(Artificial)
Waterstone=Natural silica clay compound

Is all this research wrong?

What type of diamond should be used for resurfacing stones, high or low grit?

Would SiC or AlO be better for carbon steels?
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yes your research is wrong or at least very incomplete and over simplified, a whetstone is a sharpening stone. a waterstone is a whetstone used with water.

japanese waterstone as described above are natural stones. there is a very wide range of synthetic waterstone that use aluminium oxyde or less often SiC. some are softish, some are very hard, some are almost like ceramics. imho synthetic waterstones are your best bet for simple carbon steels.
 
HitmanNumber86 said:
So my understanding is this:
Whetstone=Novaculite(Natural)/Ceramic(Artificial)
Waterstone=Natural silica clay compound
Click to expand...


Which part of 'whet'='sharpen' did you miss? Three people have said it now. A 'whetstone' is something that sharpens.
You can even whet your appetite with hors d'oeuvre. A whetstone can be made of Novaculite, SiC, Clay, Sandstone, Glass, compounded hardwood, etc., etc., etc.
It can be use 'wet' or 'dry.' It does NOT 'require' liquid, however, various liquids have been used with different sharpening materials. Water, oil, spit, dish washing liquid, even whiskey. It can be used completely dry using . Whet does NOT mean wet, even though they sound the same.

Stitchawl
 
Whetstone= "to sharpen with stone" as been said.

Hitman, stop thinking and just buy a stone. Trying to understand something you have no experience with is your main problem. Many of us have Decades of experience using stones, that's something you cannot replace with a few days of reading on the internet.
 
HitmanNumber86 said:
xuz, knifenut1013, HeavyHanded, Magnaminous_G, thanks for all the help. Some of the answers were reminding me of why I don't hangout on forums too often.

kinfenut1013, My gut wrenched when you smashed that knife into that stone. I will definitely be looking into the Norton stone collection. What system of grit measurement do they use?

Magnaminous_G, I understand your answers, but as I said in my original post, I just started studying stoning. I also understand how you think I should build experience by using different stones, but you should understand I'd love to have the money to buy five stones from every brand, but I can't do that. I feel I can apply measurements to my problem 'cus I'm a machinist and a welder, so I understand how to apply grits, microns, and compound grinding materials. I could grind you a gauge block by hand, with the right stone, and a micrometer.

As for my understanding of whetstones vs waterstones. I found information from the local sharpening shop website of Frank Surace, knifesharpeningbyhand.com. It says, "The geology of Japan has provided a type of stone which consists of very fine silicate particles in a clay matrix. This is somewhat softer than Novaculite." I've also found this quote, but I can't seem to find the original source, "Despite being a homophone with wet, whetstones need be lubricated with neither oil nor water, although it is very common that either is used." Also, many different sources associate natural whetstones with Novaculite.

So my understanding is this:
Whetstone=Novaculite(Natural)/Ceramic(Artificial)
Waterstone=Natural silica clay compound

Is all this research wrong?

What type of diamond should be used for resurfacing stones, high or low grit?

Would SiC or AlO be better for carbon steels?
Click to expand...



Ahh... now I see that you're a serious sharpener. Okay, let's talk shop. Resurface with your finest whetstone. Make sure it's pure Novaculite. If they try to sell you something that's only 99% pure, send it back. Then finish with a combination of AlO and SiC ground into fine powder and mixed in a 50/50 solution of acetone and sparkling seltzer heated to exactly 105.6 degrees. One degree off, and you've ruined it. Use an electric candy thermometer to make sure you're at 105.6 and keep your eye on the temperature.
 
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HitmanNumber86 said:
...Some of the answers were reminding me of why I don't hangout on forums too often...
Click to expand...

Stick around -> ask -> learn. I found ppl honest advices & assessments are invaluable vs beat-around-the-bushes-gentle nonsense. I'd learned alot from ppl here. When in doubt, ask don't tell. I can't remember how many time - way too many, I called myself newb and ate :foot: sandwiches.

Welcome to BF sharpeningknut house.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
Ahh... now I see that you're a serious sharpener. Okay, let's talk shop. Resurface with your finest whetstone. Make sure it's pure Novaculite. If they try to sell you something that's only 99% pure, send it back. Then finish with a combination of AlO and SiC ground into fine powder and mixed in a 50/50 solution of acetone and sparkling seltzer heated to exactly 105.6 degrees. One degree off, and you've ruined it. Use an electric candy thermometer to make sure you're at 105.6 and keep your eye on the temperature.
Click to expand...

You Tyro! Anyone with experience knows you don't use sparkling seltzer, you use TONIC WATER. And for the newer steels the new target temp is 106.3...
 
Dammit... I knew there was a reason why my edge wasn't getting anywhere! I've got a bone to pick with Frank Surace...
 
knifenut1013 said:
Whetstone= "to sharpen with stone" as been said.

Hitman, stop thinking and just buy a stone. Trying to understand something you have no experience with is your main problem. Many of us have Decades of experience using stones, that's something you cannot replace with a few days of reading on the internet.
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This ^.

You're overthinking it. You wanted a combination stone, just get a Norton India stone (AlumOx) or Crystalon (SiC) - available all over the place and for a reasonable sum. Both of these stones handle all common steels well and have about the shortest learning curve you can get for freehanding. You can finish off your edges on a strop, with a steel, with a micobevel on the same stone, or just leave them as they come off the fine side. Experience with that will inform your next move better than a heap of advice from the forum, even if much of it is useful. Entirely possible you might never need another stone...

HH
 
knifenut1013

Whetstone= "to sharpen with stone" as been said.

Hitman, stop thinking and just buy a stone. Trying to understand something you have no experience with is your main problem. Many of us have Decades of experience using stones, that's something you cannot replace with a few days of reading on the internet.

**

HeavyHanded

You're overthinking it. You wanted a combination stone, just get a Norton India stone (AlumOx) or Crystalon (SiC) - available all over the place and for a reasonable sum. Both of these stones handle all common steels well and have about the shortest learning curve you can get for freehanding. You can finish off your edges on a strop, with a steel, with a micobevel on the same stone, or just leave them as they come off the fine side. Experience with that will inform your next move better than a heap of advice from the forum, even if much of it is useful. Entirely possible you might never need another stone...
HH
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:thumbup:++
 
I'm going by your SHTF comment, a set of DMT credit card and a strop is what I carry daily. Tips from 'grease' and 'magnanimous_g'.

It should be a compromise for all kind of steel and with some skill will result in workable edge.

Won't work to polish a heirloom katana but anything for daily use cutting should be fine.
 
>me
>asking questions on forums to become more knowledgeable
>everyone tells me to go and learn on my own
>fml
>stops trying
 
HitmanNumber86 said:
>me
>asking questions on forums to become more knowledgeable
>everyone tells me to go and learn on my own
>fml
>stops trying
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Plenty of good advice but it all boils down to YOU obtaining a reference point first. Get a simple stone and use. Once you understand what that particular stone does for you, you'll be better able to determine what might be next. Get a simple stone of known composition - don't just get an unmarked stone from the hardware stone (unless its the Norton Econo stone sold at Home Depot - here's a vid i made a while back using it http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1018473-Norton-econo-stone-review-Vid?highlight=vid).

Try your hand, observe the results, form a reference point for further questions/advice. If the topic were straightforward or simple, there wouldn't be so many different opinions.
 
HitmanNumber86 said:
>me
>asking questions on forums to become more knowledgeable
>everyone tells me to go and learn on my own
>fml
>stops trying
Click to expand...

What do you expect?

We told you the the path to follow, we didn't tell you to go blindly on your own.

If your not going to follow our advice then that's your problem.
 
HitmanNumber86 said:
>me
>asking questions on forums to become more knowledgeable
>everyone tells me to go and learn on my own
>fml
>stops trying
Click to expand...

Sometimes, especially in subject that are not very simple, it takes a bit of knowledge to ask the right questions and understand the answers. You really did not have a frame of referrence to understand the answers. Besides, your question may have sounded to you like you knew what you were talking about but for someone who knows stones and sharpening, your question was pretty much obviously only an attempt to sound knowledgeable.

I hope you can find the info you want from another source since the instruction here is obviously not to your liking.
 
There are 3 and only 3 keys to sharpening on "stones" (of whatever type/consturctions):

  1. Practice
  2. Practice
  3. Practice

Only 3 and only ever these 3.
 
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Some very good advise aside, why is it relevant at all that someone "tried to sound knowledgeable"? Lighten up people. It is not useful -- or courteous -- to go into attack mode at every perceived opportunity, however satisfying some may find it.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Some very good advise aside, why is it relevant at all that someone "tried to sound knowledgeable"? Lighten up people. It is not useful -- or courteous -- to go into attack mode at every perceived opportunity, however satisfying some may find it.
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I'm afraid that I have to agree.

Op- shrug it off. I encourage you to stick around. There are some exceedingly helpful and patient people who will go out of their way to help. I don't suggest that you go out and spend a ton of money on equipment. My favorite stone thus far is the $6 economy Norton stone from Home Depot. I prefer guided systems though because I suck at freehand sharpening, and I find more enjoyment from refinement anyway, which in my case means stropping with different compounds. I also don't have a lot of time to dedicate to learning since my sharpening mostly consists of edge maintenance on wood carving knives now.

In any case, don't stop asking questions. Stick around. You'll learn a ton, and probably enjoy it very much in the process. Sharpening, as you probably already know, is a hobby all its own. ;)
 
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