Sharpening Traditional Folders

[jomarti]

My knife interest has turned to traditional folders and I'd be interested to know what experienced traditional enthusiasts do for sharpening. I ask because these blades are considerably smaller, in most cases, plus using water stones would seem to be a problem with all the built up assembly and wood scales I prefer. Maybe enclosing all but the blade in a rubber glove finger?

Appreciate any and all comments.

Clarification- When using Japanese water stones I usually have lots of water for stone rinsing, hands are wet pretty, messy process. That causes some concern about getting water into the joints and hinges as well as swelling of wood scales rather than size of blades.

 

[J D Wijbenga]

I use Norton Fine india, diamonds, and ceramics. Just what I feel like. I usually sharpened with water or soap and water. I do not see a difference between sharpening traditional knives and modern once.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I've settled comfortably into a habit of using a Fine/EF diamond 'credit card' hone for setting bevels on small traditional knives. Due to the simple steels used (for most traditionals) and the small & thin blade profiles, it works very, very quickly. I like to use a scrubbing back/forth or a circular motion on the diamond hones to set bevels; this means I seldom lift the blade away, except to check progress, and I find it easier to maintain a steady angle this way, with my index finger alongside the portion of the edge being worked, for feedback.

After setting bevels with the diamond, stropping with white rouge compound on paper or linen over a hard backing, like wood, glass or stone will clean up any burrs very quickly, and also polishes up the simpler steels very easily, to hair-popping sharpness. Some light stropping on bare leather (like a belt) can keep fine edges on these knives tuned up for quite a while. When that doesn't work as effectively, returning to the firmly-backed paper/linen stropping with the white rouge can quickly put the bite back into the edge.

I maintain my traditional Case knives in Tru-Sharp & CV, Buck in 420HC, and my favorite Schrade USA Old Timer 8OT in 1095 using the above methods. I've also settled into the same routine on many other blades, in a wide variety of steels. Couldn't be happier with the results.


David

 

[jomarti]

I've settled comfortably into a habit of using a Fine/EF diamond 'credit card' hone for setting bevels on small traditional knives. Due to the simple steels used (for most traditionals) and the small & thin blade profiles, it works very, very quickly. I like to use a scrubbing back/forth or a circular motion on the diamond hones to set bevels; this means I seldom lift the blade away, except to check progress, and I find it easier to maintain a steady angle this way, with my index finger alongside the portion of the edge being worked, for feedback.

After setting bevels with the diamond, stropping with white rouge compound on paper or linen over a hard backing, like wood, glass or stone will clean up any burrs very quickly, and also polishes up the simpler steels very easily, to hair-popping sharpness. Some light stropping on bare leather (like a belt) can keep fine edges on these knives tuned up for quite a while. When that doesn't work as effectively, returning to the firmly-backed paper/linen stropping with the white rouge can quickly put the bite back into the edge.

I maintain my traditional Case knives in Tru-Sharp & CV, Buck in 420HC, and my favorite Schrade USA Old Timer 8OT in 1095 using the above methods. I've also settled into the same routine on many other blades, in a wide variety of steels. Couldn't be happier with the results.


David

That's great information and much appreciated. Looks like I need to adjust my approach, consider purchasing a diamond hone(s) and develop stropping technique. Again, thanks.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That's great information and much appreciated. Looks like I need to adjust my approach, consider purchasing a diamond hone(s) and develop stropping technique. Again, thanks.

If you do buy a diamond hone, I'd emphasize the finer grits like Fine or EF over anything coarser. Diamond is so very hard and aggressive, so coarser grits on very thin-edged blades of simple steels will remove a lot more steel than necessary, and it'll be harder to make the edge as fine as it could be. If buying just one hone, I think the Fine (600 mesh/25 micron) from DMT is the most versatile; especially if following up with the white rouge stropping. As with diamond abrasives, the white rouge stropping compound is aggressive enough on these steels, that you could essentially skip an EF diamond if you wanted to (I sometimes do). The white rouge stropping produces a pretty high polish, and even faster, the harder/firmer the strop's backing is. If you'd still like a little more 'tooth' in your finished edges, then the EF diamond (like DMT's 1200 mesh/9 micron) to finish, in lieu of the white rouge stropping, would do that nicely. Whatever stropping might be needed after the EF diamond could be done on bare leather, or perhaps with green compound on leather, and that would preserve a little more of the 'bite' left by the EF diamond.

Lots of other ways to go about it, but the above is a strategy that I've liked and is very easy to get along with.


David

 

[Sadden]

I find the carbon steels found in many traditional takes particularly well to Japanese Natural waterstones , I supercharge the mud on my finishing stones with some fine CBN and push the mud as far as I can , then finish up on some bare roo. This makes for a sweet edge.

Turning the factory edge from this (Maestro Wu BO2) , clean but coarse.


Into this , finished on an Ozuku Asagi doped with either 0.125 or 0.1u CBN.


I offer this as finish sharpening on the ones I sell. Otherwise a few passes on naked roo before they go out the door.


This is one of my samples I've been carrying , Havent given it the Jnat treatment yet but tis on my to-do list , touchups with naked roo as needed keeps it happy.




3.5" Blade length , blade made from old ww2-cold war era bombshells. Sweet little pieces of history and great edc and gentlemans knives.

 

[Jason B.]

I sharpen traditional folders all the time with waterstones and have NONE of the issues you have described.

 

[jomarti]

I sharpen traditional folders all the time with waterstones and have NONE of the issues you have described.

Are you referring to my original expressed concerns about water getting into the folding cavity/mechanism/wood scales? If so would you elaborate on how you go about this? I ask with all due respect as most of you guys are way ahead in experience with folders/maintenance.

 

[Jason B.]

Are you referring to my original expressed concerns about water getting into the folding cavity/mechanism/wood scales? If so would you elaborate on how you go about this? I ask with all due respect as most of you guys are way ahead in experience with folders/maintenance.

It's simple, you don't worry about it. Knives are made to get wet and dirty the cleaned and oiled. As long as you use a little common sense maintaince you will be fine.

 

[sodak]

I would also go with a fine diamond, if you go with diamond stones. Traditional knives are often overlooked, which is a shame. Their geometry makes them outstanding cutting knives, but they do tend to the thin side, so a light touch and fine stones are definitely a good idea.

I shy away from any natural materials such as wood on my knives, as I live in a very dry climate, and it eventually always cracks. I prefer micarta, G10, and carbon fiber instead. Almost all of my knives are not stainless, and it's not uncommon for me to wash them in the sink then lubricate the pivots. No rust in over 30 years, but again, it's a dry climate. YMMV.

 

[AFAustin]

I've settled comfortably into a habit of using a Fine/EF diamond 'credit card' hone for setting bevels on small traditional knives. Due to the simple steels used (for most traditionals) and the small & thin blade profiles, it works very, very quickly. I like to use a scrubbing back/forth or a circular motion on the diamond hones to set bevels; this means I seldom lift the blade away, except to check progress, and I find it easier to maintain a steady angle this way, with my index finger alongside the portion of the edge being worked, for feedback.

David

David,

I've not used the credit card sized hones and want to understand your method. Are you applying the hone to the blade or blade to hone? I'm assuming you hold the hone in your other hand rather than lay it flat on a hard surface?

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David,

I've not used the credit card sized hones and want to understand your method. Are you applying the hone to the blade or blade to hone? I'm assuming you hold the hone in your other hand rather than lay it flat on a hard surface?

Thanks,

Andrew

Everything's hand-held, and essentially blade-to-hone, perhaps with some qualification*. I hold the hone between my thumb at one end, and middle & ring finger at the other, with my index finger curled underneath it to support it (the 'middle' segment of my index finger, between the two knuckles, acts like a brace underneath the hone). In my knife hand, I hold the handle of the knife very much like the grip on a golf club, with my ring & pinky finger providing most of the support at the rear of the handle, with the rear bolster/cap firmly rooted in the crease of my palm directly underneath the base of the pinky finger. The middle finger of the knife hand has minimal influence on the grip; sometimes I'll even keep it extended away from the handle, as I've noticed it sometimes tends to exert too much 'twist' on the hold, and this tends to make the held angle widen up a bit. I place the tip/pad of my index finger on the side of the blade, very close behind the edge bevel nearest to the edge portion being worked. Using a back/forth or scrubbing/circular motion (while setting bevels), I'll work specific sections of the blade at a time, moving the placement of my index finger as I progress out toward the belly and tip of the blade. After I've set the bevels, I'll use a more typical sweeping/linear stroke (edge-leading) from heel to tip, to set the orientation of the grind lines on the bevels. My grip on the hone and knife remain essentially the same as before, while doing this.

* = The 'qualification' I mentioned above relates to how I sometimes, but not always, use a scrubbing motion with both the blade and hone, sort of moving or turning opposite to one another. I sometimes fall into this out of habit, but not necessarily deliberately. Since I alternate hands when sharpening each side of the blade (I keep the edge facing to me), I've noticed I tend to 'scrub' more with both hands simultaneously, when holding the blade in my left (non-dominant) hand, and the hone in my right hand. If done the other way, with blade in my dominant (right) hand and hone in my left, I do a better job at keeping the hone a little more steady, while scrubbing only with the blade hand. All of this is just a quirk of mine, and I've gotten somewhat better at duplicating the motion used either way, but I still notice I'm doing it occasionally, more so if I'm getting a bit tired and unfocused.

All of this has taken time to get accustomed to. I first started 'sharpening' my knives (coughing; using the term loosely) on a Spyderco DoubleStuff hone, and the above-described technique grew out of how I started using that one. It's all based on my earliest habits, and has taken some time to train my hands to it; especially now that I've been alternating hands, doing it from both sides.

I might start to experiment a little bit, with using the credit card hone placed on a hard & stable surface. But because it's so small, it's often more challenging to keep it from slipping/moving around on a flat surface; trying to stabilize it with my free hand tends to get too many fingers in the way of the process. When I hold the hone in my free hand as described above, only my fingertips extend above the surface of the hone, so they're less in the way. If there's a convenient way, when & where I need it, to keep the hone from slipping/sliding, then using it on a hard surface should work well enough.


David

 

[AFAustin]

David,

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. I'm going to put this on my "need to try" list.

My biggest question is whether I can be consistent when using my left (off) hand to hold the knife.

Andrew

 

[jomarti]

Everything's hand-held, and essentially blade-to-hone, perhaps with some qualification*. I hold the hone between my thumb at one end, and middle & ring finger at the other, with my index finger curled underneath it to support it (the 'middle' segment of my index finger, between the two knuckles, acts like a brace underneath the hone). In my knife hand, I hold the handle of the knife very much like the grip on a golf club, with my ring & pinky finger providing most of the support at the rear of the handle, with the rear bolster/cap firmly rooted in the crease of my palm directly underneath the base of the pinky finger. The middle finger of the knife hand has minimal influence on the grip; sometimes I'll even keep it extended away from the handle, as I've noticed it sometimes tends to exert too much 'twist' on the hold, and this tends to make the held angle widen up a bit. I place the tip/pad of my index finger on the side of the blade, very close behind the edge bevel nearest to the edge portion being worked. Using a back/forth or scrubbing/circular motion (while setting bevels), I'll work specific sections of the blade at a time, moving the placement of my index finger as I progress out toward the belly and tip of the blade. After I've set the bevels, I'll use a more typical sweeping/linear stroke (edge-leading) from heel to tip, to set the orientation of the grind lines on the bevels. My grip on the hone and knife remain essentially the same as before, while doing this.

* = The 'qualification' I mentioned above relates to how I sometimes, but not always, use a scrubbing motion with both the blade and hone, sort of moving or turning opposite to one another. I sometimes fall into this out of habit, but not necessarily deliberately. Since I alternate hands when sharpening each side of the blade (I keep the edge facing to me), I've noticed I tend to 'scrub' more with both hands simultaneously, when holding the blade in my left (non-dominant) hand, and the hone in my right hand. If done the other way, with blade in my dominant (right) hand and hone in my left, I do a better job at keeping the hone a little more steady, while scrubbing only with the blade hand. All of this is just a quirk of mine, and I've gotten somewhat better at duplicating the motion used either way, but I still notice I'm doing it occasionally, more so if I'm getting a bit tired and unfocused.

All of this has taken time to get accustomed to. I first started 'sharpening' my knives (coughing; using the term loosely) on a Spyderco DoubleStuff hone, and the above-described technique grew out of how I started using that one. It's all based on my earliest habits, and has taken some time to train my hands to it; especially now that I've been alternating hands, doing it from both sides.

I might start to experiment a little bit, with using the credit card hone placed on a hard & stable surface. But because it's so small, it's often more challenging to keep it from slipping/moving around on a flat surface; trying to stabilize it with my free hand tends to get too many fingers in the way of the process. When I hold the hone in my free hand as described above, only my fingertips extend above the surface of the hone, so they're less in the way. If there's a convenient way, when & where I need it, to keep the hone from slipping/sliding, then using it on a hard surface should work well enough.


David

David, that kind of detail is useful and, again, appreciated. I can see some DMT shopping in the near future.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

David,

Mag has a good trick on stabilizing DMT card in one of his older thread if you want to give it a try.

I sharpen both hand but with edge facing away. And tend to do the two hand scrub also if the knife hand is the weak one. You're not alone

 

[AFAustin]

David and Chris,

If you're still tuned in to this thread, let me ask a couple of follow-ups on the DMT credit card hones.

First, I had the impression that diamond hones were not the best choice for the simpler steels usually found in trad folders. Did I get that wrong?

Also, David, I know you have favored sandpaper as a medium for many simple carbon and stainless steels. When do you choose the DMT credit cards and when the sandpaper?

Thanks for any info.

Andrew

 

[jcmv4792]

For my case knives and other traditional pocket knives, I use diamonds for rough work and spyderco ceramic stones for maintenance. No water or oil needed for the ceramics. Just keep sharpening until the stones load up with metal and then rinse it under water and cleaner like ajax, comet, or bar keepers friend.

 

[me2]

Many traditional knives have more than one blade, and each can be tailored to a specific use. I have a trapper I carry that had 2 blades. One is a dedicated cutting blade and has an edge angle of 7 degrees per side with a 9 degree per side microbevel. The other blade is for general purpose use, which can include scraping and such. It carries a 17/20 degree/side bevel/microbevel. Both are very sharp, but the cutting blade has shown it's a much better cutter, duh, while the other gets to do things the cutting blade would never do, like scrape, light batoning, etc.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Andrew,

Because of the agressive nature, for simple steel, I use just the EF, and sometimes even only EEF. Light pressure always.

Don't really have traditionals, but some 52100 and simple steel (8Cr). Work quite well.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David and Chris,

If you're still tuned in to this thread, let me ask a couple of follow-ups on the DMT credit card hones.

First, I had the impression that diamond hones were not the best choice for the simpler steels usually found in trad folders. Did I get that wrong?

Also, David, I know you have favored sandpaper as a medium for many simple carbon and stainless steels. When do you choose the DMT credit cards and when the sandpaper?

Thanks for any info.

Andrew

My recent 'favorite' habit has been to use a Fine/EF diamond for setting bevels on traditional blades (and many others), after which I'll often use mid/higher-grit sandpaper to do some of the refining. As has always been the case for me personally, I'm constantly experimenting with different strategies. Even lately, I've started to immediately follow the bevel-setting on diamond hones (usually following the DMT EF) with stropping on paper (single thickness) or linen over wood, with some white rouge compound, skipping the sandpaper entirely. I've found that the hard-backed strop with the white rouge works very fast to refine & polish the edge left by the Fine/EF diamond, and virtually negates any need to use the sandpaper. A lot of this strategy came about because I've (very happily) become very comfortable with using my diamond hones, and the edges produced from either the Fine/EF need very little additional refinement, aside from cleaning up light burrs. The white rouge compound (mine is a Ryobi AlOx at 2-5µ) is also becoming my favorite stropping media, by far; it works extremely well on a very wide range of steels, from simple carbon steels like 1095, Case's CV and Opinel's XC90 'carbone', up through more wear-resistant steels like VG-10, 154CM and D2. Most recently, I re-bevelled a limited-run Buck 118 fixed blade in D2, using my 6" double-sided Dia-Sharp in Fine/EF (originally started tinkering on it with my DMT Fine 'credit card' hone), then immediately followed with the stropping method mentioned above; I'm VERY happy, and even thrilled, with how that one turned out.

I have said myself, in the past, that I didn't generally like diamond on simpler steels. I've since had to re-think that position, in finding that the Fine/EF diamond hones are very, very efficient on virtually any small blade, in any steel, for setting very crisp bevels very quickly. This is also why I like the 'credit card' diamond hones, because they're pocketable and immediately accessible anywhere, and still very fast for these jobs. I could literally destroy an edge on a traditional folding knife in 1095 or 420HC, and still just whip out my Fine DMT credit card and fully restore it to a great working edge, with relatively little effort, no matter where I happen to be. That makes me happy, and is the biggest reason I've begun to re-think the value of my diamond hones for simpler blades and anything else.

I still prefer not to use a Coarse/XC/XXC diamond on anything but large/heavy blades, as they'll be overkill on anything small, such as for traditional folders. When a lot of steel has to be hogged off a large/thick blade, in any steel, that's where the coarser diamond hones are more useful (to me).


David