Sharpening trouble

P

Pr3inar

Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
817
Hello! First post.. I have some problems sharpening my ESEE knives, that I need help with. I currently own the Candiru, Izula II, 3 and 4, and I use the Sharpmaker to sharpen them.

The problem: right before the belly starts I can see light reflecting of the edge, on every of the ESEE's. After reading on this forum I concluded with a wire edge, so I have tried stropping on a belt, dragging the edge along the stone on a steeper angle both ways (push with edge first and drag the knife with edge down) and I tried to drag the edge through wood. No change. I can cut printer paper, and shave armhair with it. If i dra the knives through my hair it cuts the hair on my head, so they are sharp (by my standards at least).

I tried to drag the knife hard through some prosessed hard wood just to see what happened to the edge, and while the light-reflecting parts grew longer, it was still shaving sharp.

What is wrong with my knives? Or more precisely, what is wrong with my sharpening technique?
Just to be clear, I have bought the ESEEs from different places. Since it has happened to every one of them, I don't blame ESEE for this.. Or Spyderco for that matter :)

(Please pardon for any spelling mistakes, english is not my first language)
 
It's possible that what you're seeing is not a burr or wire edge, but actually the microbevel put on the very edge of the blade by the Sharpmaker. It will be at a slightly higher angle than the main bevel, and will likely have a higher polish than the factory edge. It can be thin enough to masquerade as a wire edge to the naked eye.

I'd recommend slicing some newsprint. If it will slice cleanly along the entire edge without hanging up, you don't have any significant burrs on the edge.
 
Hi

Maybe its just a roll and not a burr (wire edge)?
Or maybe its simply dull?

See a wire edge forms when you're grinding on the stone,
to cut it off double the angle (or more, like 40)
and use light alternating passes, 1 or 2 per side

A roll happens when you cut(or hit) something too hard (like a rock) for your edge ,
so it folds to the side ... its much thicker than a burr

You can push a rolled edge back into vertical by sharpening at a higher angle,
or burnishing ("steeling") on a chef steel (or glass rod, cup)
you can even using a stropping motion on these hard materials to roll the edge back


You can also use permanent marker like a sharpie to figure it out

mark up that before belly reflective section
just color the whole thing , sides and apex

then sharpen that section only on the sharpmaker 1-3 passes per side,
and look where the marker disappears

are you're removing marker on the very apex/tip of the edge?
how far back is marker being removed?
It it being removed on just one side?

what happens when you increase the angle ?
beyond the sharmaker 40 degree setting (20 degrees per side)

Maybe all you need to do is press a tiny bit harder to roll edge back

a red/green marker might be easier to see than black marker
 
Ditto on the marker trick. It will give you the best idea of where you are making contact with the sharpmaker stones
 
Tried the sharpie-thing. Got similar results on both the izula and the 3, after 10 strokes on each side on the brown/grey stone
image_zpscsry36an.jpeg
image_zpsulhf2ldw.jpeg
Is it the bevels that are causing different grinding from the stones, or is it just my technique?
 
Last edited:
Pr3inar said:
image_zpscsry36an.jpeg
Click to expand...
There is still Sharpie on the far left edge indicating that you are not hitting the apex.

Again, try slicing newsprint or phonebook paper using the entire edge. If the paper slices cleanly without snagging or tearing, then the edge is fine. If not, you've got more work to do.

Even with the coarser SM's 400grit Diamond or CBN rods, you should be able to get the edge to slice cleanly.
 
^Agreed, it's not apexed yet.

Don't count strokes to gauge progress. It's too unreliable.

Also, don't rely too heavily on the Sharpie alone. One light brush of the edge against the rods can remove the ink while not removing much metal at all (this is likely the reason why you're seeing that reflected light near the edge), and you'll still not be anywhere close to a full apex. Work until you can see AND FEEL an obvious burr along the full length of the cutting edge, then 'flip' the burr so you can see and feel it from the other side. That's the ONLY way you'll know for sure that you've apexed the whole edge. On thick-edged knives like these, that'll likely take some time. If it's really thick at the edge, consider investing in either the diamond or CBN rods for the Sharpmaker, which will remove steel more efficiently than the ceramics alone, which'll likely take hundreds or thousands of strokes to remove enough steel (this is why counting strokes for rebevelling work is too unreliable, or no real help at all).


David
 
Thanks for your help! I tried using a cheap diamond hone thats supposed to be 320 grit to work the bevel on the izula. Then I used the 30 deg setting for a while, and when I went back to 40 deg I finally hit the apex. After sharpening through the stages i dragged the blade at a big angle lightly over the stone, and then stropped on the belt. After that i managed to cut thin paper (read news online and havent seen a phonebook in at least 10 years, so had to use the manual for an IKEA-closet..). Now it works!

I went outside and made some feathersticks and then looked for reflection after. I also cut the same paper, some cardvoard and shaved my arms. The edge didn't change :)

I considered investing in the diamond rods, but since I already have a set of DMT-stones for my Strømeng knife and UF rods on the way, I cant justify the expence (just bought a house, have to save money). When I get the stones I will try to do what you said about the burr, freehand or by leaning the stones against the sharpmaker.

Againg, thanks to everyone that responded!
 
Pr3inar said:
I considered investing in the diamond rods, but since I already have a set of DMT-stones for my Strømeng knife and UF rods on the way, I cant justify the expence (just bought a house, have to save money). When I get the stones I will try to do what you said about the burr, freehand or by leaning the stones against the sharpmaker.
Click to expand...
Yeah, just rubber band those DMT stones to the SM standard rods and you'll be good.
 
I see a bevel that needs a lot of coarse stone work. Without grinding the bevel evenly to an apex you will continue to struggle with maintenance of the edge.

Personally, I would use a cheap hardware Aluminum oxide stone (ACE, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) to be budget friendly... plus it will work better on the carbon steel than most diamond plates. Start by cutting into the stone to make the edge flat and uniformly shaped from heel to tip. Then grind the edge until a burr forms. After that move to your SM.
 
Living in Norway, I dont have that many options regarding equipment, so I will have to make due with the DMT and Sharpmaker. I just have to wait for my Dmt's, and then do whats been advised here!

The knives are sharp enough for what I use them for now, but it's annoying me that it's not perfect.

Jason B - whats the difference betveen cutting into the stone and grinding? Is it a dfference there on how I hold the knife?
 
Jason B. said:
I see a bevel that needs a lot of coarse stone work. Without grinding the bevel evenly to an apex you will continue to struggle with maintenance of the edge.

Personally, I would use a cheap hardware Aluminum oxide stone (ACE, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) to be budget friendly... plus it will work better on the carbon steel than most diamond plates. Start by cutting into the stone to make the edge flat and uniformly shaped from heel to tip. Then grind the edge until a burr forms. After that move to your SM.
Click to expand...

Just curious - why will the SiC stone work better on Carbon steel than a diamond plate? Not contesting it, just want to know! Thanks!
 
So is this a good plan for achieving a maintainable, relatively sharp edge:
1: mark the bevel with sharpie
2: work one side of the bevel on the sharpmaker at 40 deg with the coarse DMT until I hit the whole bevel, from shoulder to apex, and a burr forms
3: work the other side the same way, until both bevels are flat and meeting in an apex
4: continue with fine DMT, medium-, fine- and UF SM-stone in alternating fashion
5: strop on belt

OR

Step 2 and 3 on the 30 deg setting and then creating a micro bevel at 40 deg.
 
Pr3inar said:
So is this a good plan for achieving a maintainable, relatively sharp edge:
1: mark the bevel with sharpie
2: work one side of the bevel on the sharpmaker at 40 deg with the coarse DMT until I hit the whole bevel, from shoulder to apex, and a burr forms
3: work the other side the same way, until both bevels are flat and meeting in an apex
4: continue with fine DMT, medium-, fine- and UF SM-stone in alternating fashion
5: strop on belt

OR

Step 2 and 3 on the 30 deg setting and then creating a micro bevel at 40 deg.
Click to expand...

In the longer term, you'll be happier with the results in doing what's bolded above.^ It'll take longer in setting up the edge the first time, but the cutting geometry will be much improved, and the resulting edge will also be much, much easier to maintain afterward. The Sharpmaker is ideally suited for an edge done as such.


David
 
Last edited:
Ok. I feel I have incorporated all the advise given to me in this thread, and I am grateful for them all. I just eant to like and use the ESEE's, but when I know they will dull from the work needed to start a fire, it takes the edge of the fun (pun intended). Now all I have to do is wait for the DMT to arrive, I'm guessing sometimes next week! I will update the thread when I have done 1 or 2 knives, depending on how long it will take :)

I hope the DMT's will work for my para 2 and BM adamas 375 too! They have been heavily used and abused at work, and the SM just didn't bite on them
 
This can help you get faster and better results if you are going to reprofile with the SharpMaker:


Magnaminous_G said:
I do not recommend the Spyderco DVDs because Sal does not demonstrate sharpening a totally dull, dinged up knife from start to finish. (There's a reason people jokingly call it the "SharpKeeper.") But that’s exactly what you are going to be doing. The official one-stroke-alternating style will simply be too slow (see the video I made years ago below, which is also mentioned in RayseM’s post above -- I did not invent this method. I learned it from CrimsonTideShooter, aka J. Davis). If you try to sharpen a truly dull or damaged edge the official way (especially if you are using only the stones they provide you with the base system), it will just be too slow to be worth your time that way when there is a much more efficient way to do it.
Click to expand...

And here is the video mentioned:

[youtube]ywogvxTQGXk[/youtube]
 
not sure what's going on, can't post more than two lines.
 
Cutting into the stone that Jason mentioned is meant to remove the weakened steel and prepare for the full sharpening.
By having a full flattened apex and see it removed (full burr like David said), you'll end up with strong apex.

Good luck. I live far away from US too, so have to make do with what available.
When you get the DMT, use light touch/pressure to avoid dislodging the diamonds.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top