sharpening w/ a hand rubbed finish

J. Neilson

J. Neilson

Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
3,621
OK, I'm full of questions today and this may seem like a silly question to some but, I've just recently started doing the 1000-1500 grit hand-rubbed finish on my knives. I love the way it looks plus, I've been making a serious effort to "up grade" my work (I guess you'd put it that way?). My only problem seems to be my edges. I would normally sharpen my knives with a new 400 grit belt and then run them across a buffing wheel with white compound. I'd get a hair popping edge every time, no trouble, real easy. Now with the hand rub, the buffing wheel blows out the scratch pattern. So I tried switching to a 1x30 leather belt but, didn't get the same results, sharp but, not scary, hair-poppoing sharp. So as it stands, I'm getting my edge the way I use to, blowing out the scratch pattern, then putting the finish back on very carefully. Am I missing an easier way here, because this is a real pain in the butt. I love the finish but, I hate touching it up 3 times (solder joint, logo etch & sharpening). I also sharpen on a flat platen. I'm thinking about switching to slack (between the platen & wheel). I haven't tried it yet, I'll definaely test a few of my own out before deciding. If I'm running on, don't mind me, I'm exhuasted.
:grumpy:
 
J., my last step, except for mark etching, is edge sharpening. But that still isn't exactly right. I'll sharpen to do a test, then knock the edge off to send for sheath making, then finish the blade, then put final edge on. THERE!! I finally got it right.

I had to edit that because my first posting was backward :confused:.

RL
 
J. I know where of you speak. Same problem. The buffing wheel ruins the look.

Get some finer belts, get trizac or norzac. I'm still using the same A30, A16 belts for sharpening for nearly a year now and there is no sign they won't last another 20. (I also had an A6, but some crap got in it and was ruining things. Gonna buy another and keep it in a bag.)

Point is, 400 grit leaves a big burr. It takes lots of buffing to remove it. So.... Remove it by running the edge cross grain on some oak.

Now, when it comes off there is a relatively large flat spot (can't see with the eye, but you can tell when slicing). Buffing will sharpen it, but again your finish is toast.


Basically, you were using the buffer to remove the burr and final sharpening. Now you HAVE to do those without using a buffer.

Choices:

Leather
Use finer grit belts (smaller burr)
Hard wheel (felt or paper wheel).


My 'norm' is going all the way to A6 - very nice looking edge. Then a light pass on a leather belt to clean it up. I was using a light pass on a clean switched buffing wheel, only toughing the edge, but still little threads with compound slap the blade. So, I bought a 2x72 leather belt. Scarry sharp and it doesn't touch the blade.

------------------------------
Option 2 - my new plan.

Set the edge with belts, now move to waterstones. I have some more to try this way before I know for sure. Besides, with waterstones I can get an EXACT angle:

http://knives.mylamb.com/calc.htm

Steve
 
Sorry J. Forgot to address your leather belt question. Leather should work fine, but your edge has to be pretty well done before you get there. That's why I use the finer belts. And you have to have, ever so slightly, a steeper angle.

Also on my belt I've rubbed in a little dry green chrome. It helps.

Steve
 
Maybe your pushing to hard on the leather belt...you might be rolling the edge...or just try putting tape just above the edge to mask the blade from the polishing wheel....:eek:
 
You might use a medium felt wheel loaded with green compound, in place of the buffing wheel.
I've been doing that for 20 years, and it works great.

Hold the blade at a 45 degree angle edge down, wire edge first. Make a light pass, and a second light pass at about 30 degrees. Repeat on the other side.
If necessary, you can make a few passes with the fine paper to cover up any areas that might have gotten too polished. Note, that is only if you slip, otherwise the felt wheel polishes only that part in direct contact with it, unlike a buffing wheel which covers a wide area.

I start with a 120 grit, followed by a 320 grit belt for the initial sharpening.:)
 
J.

You mean you can sharpen without whet stone? :D

Seriously, I've used a whet stone after a 220 grit, rough then smooth, followed by a soft arkansas stone (each with plenty of oil) for all but the last blade. I recently tried the 220 grit then 400 grit (old warn out 400) and found an incredible edge (still not as good as the stones, but much faster). If you can get the angle right, a pass on a soft arkansas stone after the 400 would work quite well.

Another choice, and a trick I use on the bevels, is to go from the 400 grit to a VERY used 400 loaded with green chrome buffing compound. This may just be able to replace the buffer.

Oh yeah, and always strop when done.

You got lots of playing to do...

Dan
 
I've been using a cardboard wheel from Jantz for about a year. It only touches the edge and doesn't wash out the finish.
 
Have you used the grit that you used for finishing glued to a piece of glass for the final pass? I used that because I was too cheap to buy good stones but even with a good stone I still use it for a final pass when I don't want to buff.
Lynn
 
I use a fresh 320 or 400 belt until I get a wire edge (burr) and take it off on a cardboard wheel loaded with white rouge. This method wont affect the nice hand rubbed finish. Im thinking of using a felt wheel instead of cardboard for a wider polished edge.
 
Cardboard wheels here too. A cheap grinder and a wheel set and you're set.
 
I normaly dont do a hand rubed finish, I generaly finish with an etch.

That said I like to get it fairly sharp while hand rubing,(already sharpened with belt) then finish with a nortion fine india stone, then a pass or two on a fine arkansaw stone. I've tried the buffing wheel, but haven't like the scary sharp edge, prefere one with just a little bite to it.
 
The felt and cardboard wheels sound good. Where do you get 'em? I checked K&G and TKS and didn't see them.

Or is that the two wheel sharpening kit I saw?
 
Originally posted by J. Neilson
The felt and cardboard wheels sound good. Where do you get 'em? I checked K&G and TKS and didn't see them.
Click to expand...


J, K&G carries them, just give them a call. 1-800-972-1192.
Get the 8" medium felt, if your buffer will handle it. P/N= FHO2A. :D
 
I just did this very thing last night and I use one of two methods (depending mostly on my mood...)

1 - handrub until sharp, removing the burr with each pass. I start with 220, 320, 400, 600, 1200, 2000 and then go back to 600. I get shaving sharp with no problem, just takes time and a good movie. ;)

2 - fine scotchbrite, 600 grit paper, leather belt (like Mike - at a steep angle), then a light pass with 600 again.


I've never used the buffer to sharpen. I'll probably get a cardboard or leather wheel...eventually. However, I've stayed away from wheels because I want my final edge to err on the convex side, and not on the concave side. I'm sure there probably no difference at all - but it makes me feel better...:D
 
Dan,

I used the cardboard wheels for a year or so. (Not like Bruce is talking about, but both setting the edge and removing the burr.) I found the edges didn't last long at all.

Sounds like Bruce is just removing the burr and 'conditioning' the edge. Probably not enough time to create the convex edge you're worring about.

The leather belt on the grinder is probably a better choice than a leather wheel. Doubt if you have a variable speed wheel grinder. And you have a choice of slack belt, platen, speed, and tension with the grinder.

For the ultimate edge retention I'm sticking with my Japanese water stones. Haven't proved it to myself, yet. But when the dust settles I think there will be 2 winners.

One is going to be the convex edge built by hand, like you do. The other is the waterstones.

Why??? (remember readers, I'm only theorizing here.)

Bend a hanger back and forth, eventually it's going to break. Bend a knife edge back and forth, it's going to weaken and break. Maybe not right away, maybe not visibly, but it's not as strong as an edge that has never moved.

So, the more that burr moves back and forth the weaker that steel becomes. And I think not just the steel in the burr, but the steel that was holding it. That steel might form an edge real fast. But it is inferior steel.

So, the steel that was behind the burr must come off too. I'm not talking a large amount. Probably .0000001 inches, but it should be removed. And the bigger the burr and the more it flopped back and forth, the more has to come off.

This means, to me, that the final edge setting is serious business. Your methods of convex with sand paper are just the ticket. Bruce using a hard wheel and a light, short touch would fit the bill. And gentle working on a water stone would too.

A power leather belt works if (as pointed out earlier in this thead) the pressure isn't enough to round the edge and the belt isn't too abrasive or running too fast.

Just my thoughts,

Steve
 
I should mention that when I'm using an A6 belt or a 1000 grit stone, the burr is almost imperceptible. There is very little 'abuse' going on in the steel.

So, by the time I get to the 2000 grit stone, the steel in the edge is rock solid.

I know, I know, all I have is theory and some practical experience. But that's what I believe is going on. I'm still testing........


Steve
 
I go from a light touch on a slack belt A30 to surgical black Arkansas to a translucent Arkansas then strop on hard leather with CrO rouge. As long as you pay attention during the slack belt polish, you won't even touch the rest of the blade.
 
I realize this may be a bit off topic and a newbie question, however, could someone give me some basics on sharpening tips. I've searched the threads and some of it is over my head (sorry I'm new). I've been sharpening on the slack belt portion of my grinder with 400 grit and then a couple of light passes on the buffer. My edges just don't seem to get razor sharp. Any directions or advice?
 
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