Sharpness of katana

[horseclover]

One katana, two katana, three katana, four. Forty katana need no S, even when there are more.

 

[Kohai999]

Huh. I never really realized I was doing it "wrong", with the accusharp-thingy.

Well....now you know. And....you have successfully destroyed the edge of whatever nihonto like object you have, rather than show patience and self-education, so that you can actually do it the "right" way. There is still hope for you.

I don't cut tatami mats, have you priced those things? Melons are free around here, I'd rather buy more steel with my money.

Cutting fruit teaches you absolutely nothing about swords or swordsmanship. Fun? Sure.....but you can cut fruit with a machete made of rebar, and still learn nothing.

The reason that tatami is expensive is that it is not common in the US, and people who bring it in want to be paid to do so. The reason tatami omote is used for cutting is that you actually DO LEARN from cutting it....you learn how to cut as you progress through more and more difficult combinations of cuts.

If you just want to amuse yourself by cutting fruit in your backyard, do so with joy....but do me and everyone else that takes swords and sword training seriously a favor, and keep it to yourself.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[J W Bensinger]

Tatami is expensive, yes-train a lot, cut occasionally. Tameshigiri is there to test your technique, not your sword.
(That being said I'd do it weekly if I had the time and the tatami, because it is enjoyable)

 

[katanas]

Great technique and a dull sword will have a tough time with rolled, soaked tatami mats, especially doubles .

 

[J W Bensinger]

Great technique and a dull sword will have a tough time with rolled, soaked tatami mats, especially doubles .

True, but I'd prefer good geometry and a so-so edge to shaving edges on bad geometry...
Friend of mine had a sword made for him (one of the two-handed wu jian-don't know the word) that was not only not very sharp, but it had edge geometry like a Buck 110-it was not pretty
(But you could swat a half mat about twenty feet on a rising cut )

 

[kaotikross]

Well....now you know. And....you have successfully destroyed the edge of whatever nihonto like object you have, rather than show patience and self-education, so that you can actually do it the "right" way. There is still hope for you.

Cutting fruit teaches you absolutely nothing about swords or swordsmanship. Fun? Sure.....but you can cut fruit with a machete made of rebar, and still learn nothing.

The reason that tatami is expensive is that it is not common in the US, and people who bring it in want to be paid to do so. The reason tatami omote is used for cutting is that you actually DO LEARN from cutting it....you learn how to cut as you progress through more and more difficult combinations of cuts.

If you just want to amuse yourself by cutting fruit in your backyard, do so with joy....but do me and everyone else that takes swords and sword training seriously a favor, and keep it to yourself.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Well, first of all, I never claimed to be "training" at all. I claimed to be cutting stuff, and yes, sometimes for the sheer exuberant joy of it. Second, this being the internet, and me being a member in good standing, I'll keep piping up whenever I feel like it, if it's all the same to you. Feel free to block me. Excuse me that I'm not currently residing in a Shinto Temple like such learned Masters as yourself, Kohai999-San, but with children to raise, and punkins being free, I'll keep using them, and hopefully the ghosts of long dead Samurai don't haunt me. I actually sometimes suspend them, so as they swing, and are placed about in other ways so as to affect actual movement, like a real opponent would, rather than the mats I simply cannot afford which just stand still. Perhaps in Feudal Japan, they took turns, one standing still while the other attacked, but I find that unlikely. I'll continue to read your comments, and critiques, with a light heart, and amusement, and continue to learn the only way I can feasibly and financially do so, living among the corn and soybeans, which mainly consists of reading, watching, and trial and error. thanks for your input.

 

[Kohai999]

Hello,

Keep doin' whatever you are doing.....you know what they say about the horse, right?

However, the attitude you are showing is EXACTLY the kind of attitude that led to countless treasures that were brought back from Japan being destroyed.

Since you ARE a member of BFC in good standing, forgive me the trespass of hoping that you might somehow be open minded to a bit of education, rather than wallowing in a lack of knowledge.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[medcommander]

1. To answer the OP question, yes the katana should be sharp enough to cut paper. The best way to think about sharpness is imagining a mountain ridge. Sharpness is the measure of how in line the mountains are to each other, and their relative jaggedness in comparison to one another. The ideal edge would be like the edge of the horizon, completely level and unbroken. Edge geometry is a far more important factor when determining how a blade will thrust or cut. An axe can be just as sharp as a straight razor but the razors thin blade profile reduces the amount of blade that contacts your facial hair, thereby reducing the friction, and allowing it to glide through hair much more easily.

2. As Bensinger said cutting rolled tatami mats is more a test of your swords edge geometry and skill as a swordsman. I would also like to point out that cutting demonstrations have used a variety of target over the years besides tatami mats, and that slicing watermelon is a perfectly fine way of honing your swordsmanship. The point of test cutting is to practice your form, and to fully understand the affect that your blade will have on a target. Instead of focusing on the target you need to focus on your form and insuring that you are properly aligning your edge when striking.

3. Calm down, it's just katanas... Currently the katana is one of the last traditionally made swords, and I find the craftsmanship that goes into making authentic katana impressive. However you also have to admit that a katana is basically a poorly designed saber, and has only become popular in its current form because it was preserved by Japanese isolationism. The Celts made pattern welded swords of much higher quality centuries before the katana was even conceived, and the rest of the world had simply evolved past the use of swords in warfare by the time katanas became relevant. Personally given the choice I would prefer the machete made of rebar; its cheap, more versatile, and isn't trying to be anything its not.

 

[kaotikross]

Kohai, no offense, but you're aware I told the OP NOT to use the accusharp on anything even remotely valuable, right? And that I'm not using it on any "Nihonto-like object", because all my stuff cost $300 or less, right? I have longswords that cost much more than any katana I own, and yes, in medieval times I'm sure a melon or two was trained upon in Europe. Just because it's the "Japanese way", doesn't make it the ONLY way, or would you disagree? You've been a member here a long time, and I respect that,but please bear in mind not everyone has the knife/sword industry connections you have, or lives somewhere with your resources, or has the money to attend a real training place if they did. I know, I know, this was always "your hangout", and by you, I mean The "Sword Guys", guys with far more knowledge than 99.9% of the general population,myself included, so do you "Sword Guys" never wish us to post at all? Or to only ask sometimes exasperatingly annoying questions like "Recommend a katana under $150", or worse.. "what's this worth?" I figured out using the accusharp on my own, then found SBG recommending it to novices with no other means, which is myself basically. If I've somehow offended you, my apologies. Perhaps I've "rubbed some the wrong way" here. Not my intention. I like you "sword Guys', and admire what you've done and the knowledge you possess, so please understand that some of us will probably NEVER move much past "cutting stuff in the backyard", and most of us will NEVER own anything you guys would consider a quality weapon, but that doesn't mean we don't love swords just as much as anyone else here, and that's what this is all about.

Perhaps petition the folks that run the Forum to make a special area that we casual afficionados/weekend sword-iors cannot read or access, if no such area exists.

Also.. ANYONE can become a customer, and to treat any possible future customer with anything except good nature is to burn a bridge you'll never repair, and possibly more than one if they were to become too offended- a business lesson taught to me by a wizened professional, and one I'm sure you knew but perhaps forgot.

 

[Kohai999]

Kohai, no offense, but you're aware I told the OP NOT to use the accusharp on anything even remotely valuable, right? And that I'm not using it on any "Nihonto-like object", because all my stuff cost $300 or less, right? I have longswords that cost much more than any katana I own, and yes, in medieval times I'm sure a melon or two was trained upon in Europe. Just because it's the "Japanese way", doesn't make it the ONLY way, or would you disagree? You've been a member here a long time, and I respect that,but please bear in mind not everyone has the knife/sword industry connections you have, or lives somewhere with your resources, or has the money to attend a real training place if they did. I know, I know, this was always "your hangout", and by you, I mean The "Sword Guys", guys with far more knowledge than 99.9% of the general population,myself included, so do you "Sword Guys" never wish us to post at all? Or to only ask sometimes exasperatingly annoying questions like "Recommend a katana under $150", or worse.. "what's this worth?" I figured out using the accusharp on my own, then found SBG recommending it to novices with no other means, which is myself basically. If I've somehow offended you, my apologies. Perhaps I've "rubbed some the wrong way" here. Not my intention. I like you "sword Guys', and admire what you've done and the knowledge you possess, so please understand that some of us will probably NEVER move much past "cutting stuff in the backyard", and most of us will NEVER own anything you guys would consider a quality weapon, but that doesn't mean we don't love swords just as much as anyone else here, and that's what this is all about.

Perhaps petition the folks that run the Forum to make a special area that we casual afficionados/weekend sword-iors cannot read or access, if no such area exists.

Also.. ANYONE can become a customer, and to treat any possible future customer with anything except good nature is to burn a bridge you'll never repair, and possibly more than one if they were to become too offended- a business lesson taught to me by a wizened professional, and one I'm sure you knew but perhaps forgot.

All good points....no you haven't offended me....and you are free to post whatever you want, but you knew that already.

Bob Engnath worked pretty much in a vacuum, so he developed methodology more attuned to Western mindset than anything. Sandpaper is your friend. It isn't that expensive, and in the long run is more efficient and leaves less room for damage than just about anything:

http://www.knives.com/knives/howto/21-bob-engnath-on-qhand-finishingq.html

I hope this helps you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[kaotikross]

Thanks!! :thumbup: MUCH appreciated Kohai.

 

[J W Bensinger]

One thing I have found helpful with maintaining convex edges (when i'm not trying to preserve the finish on a katana-like object) is instead of using mousepad under fine wet-or-dry sandpaper I use rubber belting-the length of a sword offers a fair amount of leverage against mousepad and it's pretty easy to roll the edge over.
Also running heel-to-tip leaves whatever microserration from whatever grit you finish at aligned so it bites on a drawcut, which is more important than you would think. The brown ceramic hones (gatco or the very expensive but useful spyderco profiles) are a good final tune-up, and don't remove much steel at all. It's the only edge I've found that will reliably cut silk wrapped around tatami.
On a side note I have some friends who do HEMA who can cut tatami pretty reliably with hand-and-a-half swords that just aren't that sharp-as long as they hit at the point of percussion.

 

[horseclover]

Also running heel-to-tip leaves whatever microserration from whatever grit you finish at aligned so it bites on a drawcut, which is more important than you would think. The brown ceramic hones (gatco or the very expensive but useful spyderco profiles) are a good final tune-up, and don't remove much steel at all. It's the only edge I've found that will reliably cut silk wrapped around tatami

This has been agreed on almost verbatim by Keith Larman for maintaining a sharp blade and something I have done for eons.
http://summerchild.com/summer.html

The two biggest problems with the carbide sharpeners are the set angle. One can fudge that a bit but is the blade is thickly convex, one may find the resulting secondary bevel awful. The second issue is force. It is easy to remove a lot of metal and often very unevenly. I use one to hog metal on blunts, then files, then stones but that is not for blades that already have an overall edge already established.

I wouldn't overlook Steven's purist outlook because i would hope he is trying to encourage a broader knowledge regarding Japanese swords and how they are meant to be. I saw a thread last night somewhere else regarding $50 katana. I can only shake my head in wonder that the reply was "well, $100 dollar swords are a great way to start". Enthusiasm often does not mean the next person will bother to learn what went into traditional katana.

I started as a kid watching productions of the Mikado, then Japanese films, then judo in the 1960s. Revisiting the themes in the 1980s, museum visits and knowing a Marto or Art Gladius might be a fun decorator. Enter the internet and sites such as Stein's index, Buugei, Howard Clark, and others. I should have plunked down the couple of grand for a complete sword from Michael Bell but then the reality that it was not something to adopt without learning even more, including the thought of practicing the art of swordsmanship. An irony here is that although Marto swords are simply decorative, they are by and large a lot more accurate than the China flood swords.

I continue to watch a lot of the Criterion group Japanese films to the point of being able to follow conversation without subtitles but the thing that stands out the most is how badly the modern production swords look. Smack_me_in the head for not signing up for a Bell sword back in the '90s. I too could have been a Japanese happy pants dude.

My trusty Hanwei Practical from the 2002 batches has cotton on plastic. It has plastic menuki. It has a great blade and the overall form quite good compared to what is now available at the $100-$150 range. To be honest, I have not tuned the edge in a couple of years but it gets use in the hands of many each year at a show. It has seen a diamond pocket stone, lightly, the weight of the stone, and also a ceramic rod. It still shows a very narrow line at the edge but has no pronounced secondary bevel. I would never use my AccuSharp on it, as the ceramic does the job for that honing. Other's mileage may vary.

Cheers

GC

http://dragonflyforge.com/

 

[Mecha]

Interesting stuff, Horseclover. I don't know very much about Japanese swords, but I've seen a lot of knockoffs of various quality. The swords made by Japanese masters that were displayed at the OKCA knife show (including a Masamune) looked way different than the copies; they seemed smaller and lighter, and were so sharp that the edge seemed to disappear as if phasing into another dimension.

These swords were mesmerizing, absolutely striking to see, and caused me to deeply contemplate my own sword making endeavors.

 

[J W Bensinger]

Doesn't it just make you think. When i lived in Japan in the 90's and got to look at (and handle!) some of my friends family swords, I just stopped making swords and Japanese style stuff in general for about 5 years. Like playing guitar and listening to someone like Andrés Segovia and putting away the classical guitar and going back to playing Black Flag.

 

[Lycosa]

I agree but^ I was told by a reputable knife maker that many Japanese swords failed, chipped or broke, when used.
Hartsfield knew to incorporate modern techniques in blade making, in order to make the consistently finest blades.
rolf

 

[godot]

I've seen WW11 katana's with an original edge on them so sharp they would easily cut you if you drew your finger down the blade. I agree the key is blade geometry, not to establish a sharp edge, but to keep a sharp edge from chipping. At least, that's my take on them.

I don't buy what the manufacturer is telling you. it doesn't need to cut paper, but it sure as heck should be sharp enough to cut your finger when you run it down the blade. At $300., that's the least you should expect.

I agree. For $300, the blade should be sharp. If you want a dull Katana, go on eBAY and get one of the $25 Chinese wall hangers. Send it back.

 

[J W Bensinger]

If nothing else a sword needs to be sharp enough to discourage folk from grabbing the blade (more than once, anyway )