shaving ink from newsprint?

hardheart

hardheart

Joined
Sep 19, 2001
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Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought I saw this somewhere. Since the ink soaks into the paper, doesn't seem likely. I just tried it with a half dozen knives, with the underside of a diasharp sharpener placed under the newsprint for support. I can't get just ink, but I can slice off a layer of paper with my sharper blades (not that I think any of my knives have great edges) But I can also get a layer scraped off with a dull edge, or even a crisp blade spine. I tried to see something to differentiate performance, but I don't know if this 'test' has any value anyway.

I noticed my 'sharp' knives began the cut cleanly; I cut into colored sections, and there was a straight line where I began. The spot of paper where layers were cut by the duller knives looked more like they had been lightly abraded away, not defined by a crisp line. Almost every cut ended up going through the entire sheet after about a 1/4" of shaving. I only got a few small chips, and one larger one, about 1/2 square, without cutting all the way through the thickness of the page. This is probably heavily affected by the angle of the bevel, as much as the level of sharpness. It also took a few tries with each knife before I could start to cut into the paper instead of through it immediately.

For removing ink without slicing off a layer of paper, holding the blade perpendicular to the surface and scraping would do that. You don't need a very sharp knife for that, maybe I misunderstood what is supposed to be donwe with the newsprint.

And none of my knives push cut the edge of the paper worth a crap, had to be 2" or less away from where I held the page.:mad:
 
hardheart said:
For removing ink without slicing off a layer of paper, holding the blade perpendicular to the surface and scraping would do that.
Click to expand...

That would be scraping, what they mean is to fillet the paper. The ink doesn't go all the way through or else it would mirror on the opposite side. If you really want to showcase a high sharpness this all has to be done on the push, no drawing of the blade at all. It is also easier if you induce localized tension in the paper by bending it severely.

And none of my knives push cut the edge of the paper worth a crap, had to be 2" or less away from where I held the page.
Click to expand...

That is sort of like saying, "My friend is really fat, if she eats one more hamburger she is going to look like Linsey Lohan". In general, moving beyond 1" is sharper than the vast majority of knives. Most can't do it at all unless you are really close to the point the paper is under tension.

-Cliff
 
I saw Phil Hartsfield fillet the ink off a business card in person.
Maybe start with that :D
 
My cousin who is a reporter said that the sports section is printed on thicker paper. Try using the sports section.
 
I just tried a business card (no sports section, the paper I was using was one of those free classfieds) using 5 of the knives. I had done all of the cuts on newsprint with a push, didn't even think to slice :foot: I did with the card.

The cobalt Boye did nothing but scratch at the surface, but it barely scrapes hairs from my arm anyway, I'm still trying to decide how to shape the edge. It slices cardboard great, so I can live with the rough edge while pondering. I believe the constant curve of the blade profile makes the push cut more difficult to initiate, I avoided beginning the cut by digging in with the tip, and I couldn't get the edge to catch anywhere else along it's length.

The Al Mar Falcon did fairly well, but I had trouble beginning a push cut along the length of the blade, had to use the edge closer to the tip. I'd say that's due to the insubstantial belly, the AUS8 has a nice edge. Slicing into the card did give a thinner 'filet'.

Seems a bit contradictory that I think the Boye didn't work because the whole blade curves, and the Falcon could have done better with more belly, but I think they both need a more drastic change in angle along the length of the edge. The Falcon is just a bit too straight, while the Boye just curves along the whole edge length. It has a big effect on these folders with 3" blades and small handles.

The BM 530 also doesn't have much of any belly, plus the knife isn't as sharp as the AMK, it only rough shaves arm hair. It's fairly thin, so I'll try to sharpen a bit more at the same angle to look for improvement before I reset the bevel. The cuts were decent, a step below the AMK, still performing better on the slice than push. I think that's just expected for this kind of cutting, though.

The 806 could fillet the card with a push, but with a relatively thick section. Probably the thickness of the bevel and toothiness causing that. But slicing was actually better than the thinner 530. It does shave arm hair a bit more cleanly, so the thicker/sharper edge won out over the thinner edge in need of a touch up. I may try to polish the edge up a bit with the green rouge strop, but I don't think I'll thin it out, I don't know if the D2 would benefit from it. Plus, it's more or less the SD folder of my collection, I don't use it for fine cutting.

The M2 Rittergrip did the best, the sections it push cut were the most translucent, one pass even appeared to cut the card stock right in the middle of the ink layer. I could still see faint lines of black on the card where I sliced away the lettering. Slicing performance wasn't really better than the push cutting, but that's because both it and the 806 are a bit large for me to control really well for the kind of cuts I was going for.

I did this with blades at drastically different levels of sharpness to get some idea of how this sort of cutting is actually affected by edge quality. I'm going to hunker down on a couple blades and see what happens when I get the sharpness back up on them and mess with the edge finish.
 
hmm, got the 530 to topping hairs, the 806 to clean shaving, and the Boye to shaving sharp. Now I need some more cards, all I have are embossed. Those letters come off very easily, the knives don't even bite into the paper.
 
hardheart said:
I just tried a business card ...
Click to expand...

A knife can be extremely dull and still cut heavy stock, it is a very low test of sharpness in general because the stock is really rigid. Even push cutting newsprint to fillet it isn't that sharp because the paper is being held under high tension because you are cutting in the middle of it. This is one of the "show" demonstrations of sharpness which are visually impressive but in reality don't demonstrate a high level of performance.

-Cliff
 
Yeah, I noticed that I didn't need to support the card to start the cut, it was much easier than the newsprint. Filleting either newsprint or cardstock doesn't seem too impressive now that I've tried it; if your blade is ground thin and you have a steady hand the edge quality can be on the low end and still do the job to some degree. I guess it's back to slicing toilet paper to waste time.
 
hardheart said:
Filleting either newsprint or cardstock doesn't seem too impressive now that I've tried it; if your blade is ground thin and you have a steady hand the edge quality can be on the low end and still do the job to some degree.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is mainly a visual stunt. If you want a meaningful measure of sharpness then do quantitative cuts on newsprint (or whatever) by setting the tension.

-Cliff
 
I used to use this as a sharpness test. Lay 1 piece of newpaper flat on a hard surface, and push cut the ink/letters off without going all the way through the newspaper. You are basically cutting the paper in half through the thickness of the paper. If your edges are thick, the knife needs to be sharp. If your edges are thin, this isn't very hard to do.

It is impressive to watch, though...
 
Try a cigarette paper tube, standing on end, unsupported, on the edge of the table.
Tai Goo's latest on knet/outpost.
 
Ebbtide said:
Try a cigarette paper tube, standing on end, unsupported, on the edge of the table.
Click to expand...

This is again more of a stunt than a meaningful measure of sharpness. Take a piece of newsprint, fold a strip back from one edge so it is perpendicular. Push the knife statically into the middle of the page. The height of the paper can be used to measure the sharpness and it has no dependance on user skill so it measures the edge and not the guy swinging the knife.

-Cliff
 
I tend to use newsprint to test the sharpenss of my knives, but I've found that newsprint "media" are inconsistent making comparisons difficult. Newsprint derived from virgin wood pulp has relatively long fibers compared to recycled newsprint. Also, the clay furnish and chemicals (various surfactants and bleaching agents) used to "de-ink" old newspaper fibers used for recycled newsprint change the surface properties of fibers making it very difficult to compare recycled newsprint to that made from virgin pulp. These factors also impact ink absorption that happens when printers apply ink (i.e., ink goes "deeper" into the fibers of some newsprint sheets). It's often difficult to discern the type of newsprint publishers use in their products.

Over the past several years, too, the various newsprint manufacturers in North America have been reducing the basis weights of their various newsprint products. I think a lot of newspapers have switched from 32 lb. to 30 lb. and now to 27.5 lb newsprint sheet. This makes it difficult to quantify cutting stats over time.

Even the way different printers adjust the web tension on their offset presses impacts the characteristics of the sheet's fibers and, therefore, how those fibers stand up to various cutting tests.

I currently use 30 lb. basis weight "white blank" (un-printed newsprint) manufactured by SP Newsprint in Dublin, GA. This sheet is made from 100% recycled fibers of old newspapers gathered in the southeastern USA. If possible, I try to get only newsprint manufactured on that plant's #2 paper machine. While it's not necessarily the best newsprint for printing purposes, I've found that it's very consistent from one roll to another. I've been told that the workers in that plant are very diligent in their efforts (especially in the newsprint sheet forming and drying processes). It's my understanding that SP has installed a new drum pulper at the "wet end" of the plant. It'll be interesting to see how that capital improvement impacts the characteristics of the newsprint from the #2 PM. A local newspaper production manager supplies me with a few "butt rolls" of the product each year along with a photocopy of the roll label so that I can be confident in the newsprint's origin.
 
Generally you should always use reference blades. Most stock utility knives are really cheap, $.50 per blade and are very consistent. You can also use very light synthetic cord. I bought a half a dozen rolls of baisting thread a few years back and it seems to be fairly stable. I would assume light poly fishing line or similar is really stable. Just push cut it and record the amount of force needed. Thanks for the information on newsprint, I assumed it was far more stable and fairly consistent everywhere. It may explain some of the comments I have seen in emails were people note drastically different results than what I have observed. I think I am going to start mailing out a few local sheets and see what happens.

-Cliff
 
HP sells 100' (x36" x42" x60") rolls of newsprint (in different weights) if one really wanted consistancy and didn't have a buddy in the business.
 
As someone who is addicted to cutting paper, I've discovered the certain steels such as D2, unless really polished up. do a poor job. They want to rip the paper. Whereas, 440C and 420 steels that are freshly sharpened do a great job for a short time. The particles must be finer grained. A Gerber, a Kershaw, or a Camillus work great on paper when the are freshly sharpened. All of the premiums, VG10, CPMS30V, D2, with the possible exception of 154CM require work with the white ceramics on a Sharpmaker before they are good paper cutters. The difference, of course is that the blade will continue to cut longer. If you are willing to constantly touch up the cheapies, they can get amazingly sharp.
 
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