Shop Error - accidently HT 52100 with simple 1084 methods........Advice Needed

Steelhog

Steelhog

Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
1,176
Hey all. Hope to get some advice on an error I made this afternoon. I had a blade made from 52100 get in with some 1084 blades, and I accidentally heat treated the 52100 blade the same way I did the 1084 blade's. (I had got the 52100 and made the blade before I found out it was a bit too complicated HT process for a beginner with simple tools.)

A file skates off it so it's hard to a degree, but I have no other way of testing it. I guess the question would be - should the 52100 blade go into the scrap pile or is it worth keeping/finishing. If it's worth keeping, how will it differ from 1084? I have no other method to HT it in a more complex way and it's just for me for fun anyhow. Let me know what you think scrap or keep.

(Super simple summary of my basic HT I used for the 1084 and in error the 52100 also).
  • Heat a bit past non-magnetic.
  • Quinch in pre heated canola oil.
  • Temper for 1hr at 400 twice.
 
Oh - just in case it makes any difference it's just a small Skinner style blade about 2.75" (they all are).
 
You can re-heat treat it without problem.

And actually you may get slightly grain refinement from the first HT also.
 
I would finish it out as a learning experience. Keep it for yourself, compare it to your 1084 blades, sharpen it and see how it holds an edge, do some wood chopping, brass rod test, even some abusive testing if you feel like it (the least abusive would be cutting nails, small diameter brass rod or similar).

If you are not sure it's hardened put it aside and revisit when you have the chance.
 
Shouldn't be a problem - Kevin Cashen gives similar HT'ing for both 52100 as 1084:

52100: http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/52100.html
Hardening: Austenitize from 1475°F to 1550 °F (845 °C) and quench in oil. Lower austenitizing temperatures may be used depending upon the previous thermal treatments and resulting carbide conditions.

1084: Hardening: Austenitize- Heat to no higher than 1500 °F (815 °C). In thicker sections can be quenched in water or brine with extreme care but can also be oil quenched in sections under 1/4 in. (6.35 mm) thick as the preferred method.

Since you are using a forge (correct?) the temperature control is close enough for both. If you did wish to re-HT, just go thru the normalizing, and grain refinement steps and the steel will be back to ready for HT again.
 
Kevin Cashen's website isn't a very good resource for HT recipes. It definitely does lead one to believe that 1084 and 52100 can be HT the same. They shouldn't be. With his level of expertise, it's shameful that he doesn't directly mention the need for a soak time on 52100, or 1095. He simply mentions "Knifemakers using this steel would be well served to study the special considerations in using hypereutectoid steels in dealing with the challenges these carbon levels pose."

KnifeSteelNerds.com is a much better resource for accurate HT recipes.

Austenitize @ 1500°F for 10-30 minute soak, follow by medium quench speed. You have 2.5 seconds to get the steel temp under 900°F, compared to 1/2 second for 1095. Warm canola oil should work fine for this, or Parks AAA.
 
Yea, now I remember the soak time requirement for 52100. Glad ya'll caught the wrong info I posted.

I was thinking there was something different, but when I went to Kevin Cashen's site I've just always sorta took his stuff as gospel. He is a good bladesmith and VERY knowledgeable. Very seldom do I find his info different than Larrin's info. Both are really GREAT sources of info.
 
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Hey thanks all for the advice. I just have a simple propane HT/forge and no way to maintain a consistent temp for an extended duration for a reliable soak.
 
For the 52100 blade in its current status of being heat treated like 1084, any ideas how it would act? A file skates so it's hard to a degree but no idea of it's attributes past that.
 
Here's a suggestion for your mis-treated 52100 blade, assuming you tempered it promptly: wrap tape around the handle, lop off some or most of the forge scale and then make it your bench knife. Beat the living doo out of it over time. Then you'll know how it functions with inadequate hold time to get the carbides right and you'll have taught yourself.

I have a good size damnascus blade on the mag toolbar over my bench. Been there since the latter '80s. Handle is the end of the flattened billet we pounded a blade out of steel Tim Zowada had just instructed me how to make. It's been blued and stripped, etched and stripped, beat up over the years. I'm as happy to have that old clunker as any knife I've made. And, no, we didn't get the HT right. It's O-1 and 1018, very old school, and it was heated to the point of decalescence but without a hold. It sure isn't bad, but I bet it would be better done in a furnace.
 
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Larrin said:
No need to start any Larrin/Kevin beef I’m sure he has some good info on heat treating 52100. I liked his 1084 DVD and reviewed it on my site.
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Larrin - there is NO WAY I would wish to start any type of "beef" between ya'll to folks. BOTH of ya'll have the highest level of respect from me and are MUCH more knowledgeable than I will ever aspire to be. After being reminded of the soak time, I'm pretty sure I remember Kevin saying/writing something along that.

I SHOULD have checked closer before posting info that I had not checked completely.
 
Larrin said:
No need to start any Larrin/Kevin beef I’m sure he has some good info on heat treating 52100. I liked his 1084 DVD and reviewed it on my site.
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Sorry, didn't mean to imply NOT to trust Kevin Cashen. He knows WAY MORE about metallurgy than I ever will. I was saying simply that the way his website is written, it isn't clear. First you read the top line of the HT info about the alloy, then you need to go to the hypereutectoid steels page where you learn about soak times, then back to the HT page for the temps, TTT chart, etc. As Ken quoted earlier, the info as read by beginner seems very similar for both alloys. Without telling the beginner why you need to understand hypereutectiod requirements, most of them will not bother reading that redirect.
 
100% of blades heat treated in a forge by a beginner smith have a less than optimum heat treat.

Forged in Fire contestants routinely have blades that fail from rolling, chipping, cracking, breaking, grain growth, warping, bad welds etc. yet it has inspired tons of new knife makers to get a forge and to start making knives. If you make knives long enough, you will one day regret making and selling knives with poor performance.

Hoss
 
steelhog said:
For the 52100 blade in its current status of being heat treated like 1084, any ideas how it would act? A file skates so it's hard to a degree but no idea of it's attributes past that.
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I have a few kitchen knives I've done like that. You've probably lost a little bit of hardness due to not getting all the carbon into solution, but you can still get around 60rc.
Finish it up and keep it for your own use.

D DevinT you're never going to get "optimum heat treat". It's a question of trade offs; knives are simple tools and can have quite broad margins of acceptable performance.
 
Alex Topfer said:
I have a few kitchen knives I've done like that. You've probably lost a little bit of hardness due to not getting all the carbon into solution, but you can still get around 60rc.
Finish it up and keep it for your own use.

D DevinT you're never going to get "optimum heat treat". It's a question of trade offs; knives are simple tools and can have quite broad margins of acceptable performance.
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You must heat treat using a forge.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
You must heat treat using a forge.

Hoss
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This comment wasn’t directed at me but I’ll respond anyway. What’s wrong with using a forge? I heat treat with coal and get great results. I test my blades before handing them off to customers so I’m not selling junk even though the blade wasn’t heat treated in a $2500 dollar kiln. I could buy an oven if I wanted to but why fix something if it isn’t broken?
 
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DevinT said:
You must heat treat using a forge.

Hoss
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You must heat treat using an inert gas atmosphere electric kiln with sub-degree temperature control and ceramic baffles to even out the heat, after doing separate composition testing for each blade, then quenching in brand new, unopened quench medium each time.
But do you do account for ambient pressure and temperature?
 
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