Shoptalk forum idea/suggestion

O

OTK

Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
389
Spark,

Lately there has been a large number of very new members posting typical beginner questions in the Shoptalk forum. While it is great to see young guys and folks experienced in other trades show an interest in knifemaking, these posts cause a lot of problems and frustration also.

Often, the same questions are asked even though the answers are contained in the sticky threads. This is annoying to the experienced and quite often financially contributing members. Also, the new guys are often impatient, rude, and immune to the advice they ask.

At the end of the day, I see valuable people driven from the Shoptalk forum and sometimes Bladeforums all together by the large influx of newbies. This ruins the atmosphere of Shoptalk....it is never ending and getting worse.

My proposal: make Shoptalk posting only available to paid memberships. Make a beginner subforum where beginner information can be stickied, and those folks can be passively persuaded into taking advantage of those stickies rather than demanding instant info from the vets. If they take the time to read the stickies and lurk in the paid Shoptalk forum, then perhaps they can turn the corner with their attitude and even chip in for a paid membership. As is shoptalk is being diluted and ruined.

Thank you
David Williamson
 
As moderator in Shop Talk, this isn't a bad idea. I get similar requests regularly. The requests vary, but fall into two basic categories:
1) Make Shop Talk a paid membership forum ( like Around the Grinder) and add an open forum called, "Newbies Forum - The place for new knifemakers to find basic information and help getting started". The stickies will be there and maintained by the moderators. I feel a lot of the experienced folks would frequent both, and info would be available to those who asked.

2) Leave Shop Talk as it is and add a paid membership forum ( like Around the Grinder) called, "Knifemaker's Forum The place for experienced and learning knifemakers to exchange information, procedures, and knifemaking information". This would be where the experienced guys posted their "W" pattern process and folks still learning got specific advice on a problem.

Either of the above scenarios would eliminate the "I made this knife from a lawn mower blade..." posts being deluged on the older makers who frequent Shop Talk for real information and peer exchange.

I also would suggest that part of registering as a paid member required the age and location part of the profile being filled out ( required fields). One of the biggest problems is either 15-20 year old youth ( usually flat broke and posting from a hand held device) posting repeatedly about getting started, and/or people in foreign countries asking for help and supplies. Both could have better answers if the members answering knew the OP's location, and/or that they were a youth. Telling a person in Estonia that Jantz has Corby bolts, or telling a 16 year old with no equipment how to grind the plunge on a KMG won't help either person.
 
I'm ambivalent about this. I know the influx of newbies is a problem for some folks, but honestly I feel it is a self inflicted problem. They choose to be troubled by it, when they could just as easily choose to not be troubled by it.

As an aside, setting up a paid only area for the experienced makers would exclude a number of experienced makers that still have registered user status, and show no inclination to becoming paid members (even after thousands of posts). Not sure I'd want to trap them into a decision of paying up or dealing exclusively with the newbies... but again, that's just another choice, so I'm ambivalent.

Not that this is a democracy... but if you're asking my opinion, I'd leave things as they are.
 
Normally adding new forums or splitting up a forum is a bad idea. A high volume forum is a good forum. But in this case I think it is necessary. Shoptalk has had a long slow decline over the years and I believe it has lost the critical mass of real makers and is simply moving on inertia now. It can not remain the preeminent space on the internet for real knifemakers if something isn't done. I don't know what the answer is, but this proposal makes sense to me.

Rather than create a sub forum for the real makers I think there should be a sub forum for the registered users and inexperienced makers. That should get some of the water out of the soup.

We also need to give some thought to addressing some of the specific concerns for the heavyweight makers that have left by specifically asking them what they want to come back.

I believe that part of the problem that discouraged a lot of makers was the condescending tone and negativity expressed by a subculture here whenever someone worked outside of the "proper sanctioned way". There was too much damn drama and smug condemnation. How do we encourage a culture of respect and productive contributions I don't know, but we need to figure that out.
 
OTK said:
Spark,

My proposal: make Shoptalk posting only available to paid memberships. Make a beginner subforum where beginner information can be stickied, and those folks can be passively persuaded into taking advantage of those stickies rather than demanding instant info from the vets. If they take the time to read the stickies and lurk in the paid Shoptalk forum, then perhaps they can turn the corner with their attitude and even chip in for a paid membership. As is shoptalk is being diluted and ruined.

Thank you
David Williamson
Click to expand...

I think this is a wonderful idea. Having to pay money to learn will weed out the riff raff.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Rather than create a sub forum for the real makers I think there should be a sub forum for the registered users and inexperienced makers. That should get some of the water out of the soup.
Click to expand...

I feel just the opposite, simply because most newbs would never find it. They have enough trouble finding ST itself, often posting in general or M&E. They certainly can't be bothered to browse the stickies if/when they do find their way to ST. Making it more complicated for very basic questions to find their proper place would only make more work for the mods.

I think if a split is deemed necessary, another subforum like ARG for paid, experienced members would work much more smoothly.

My main concern is that ST in general (or wherever the newbs end up) will become barren of any real instruction and regress into little more than the ignorant leading the blind. At which point, you might as well lock new makers out altogether and lump 'em in with General Discussion.
 
tryppyr said:
Not that this is a democracy... but if you're asking my opinion, I'd leave things as they are.
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My opinion also. No one that I am aware of has an obligation to either read or respond to posts other than Mods if and when the report button is clicked.
I spend a lot of time reading posts in shop talk and little time replying other than posts that I feel I can really benefit(normally a slipjoint question) the OP.
One can normally tell if the OP is asking a sincere question. I think we should remember that many folks, young,old, inexperienced, foreign to our shores, may ask questions simply for the sake of learning. They may have no intention of building a knife,grinder etc. but that does not mean that their question does not have merit.
 
I think that the Experienced sub forum is less bad than a Newbies forum however I think that
both will make this a worse place for knife makers. I only have time to follow a limited number
of forums, other makers probably feel the same way (e.g. I ignore all of Bladeforums but Shop
Talk). If I have to chose, the experienced forum would likely win. I wonder how many experienced
makers will chose to dedicate their time to reading newbie questions.
 
I am a new maker.. But I am past all the questions about steel type or can I use a lawnmower blade or a barbeque grill to forge a knife. I have noticed the change since I started following shop talk. It has become a dumping ground for WIP of most basic knife designs and just painfull to navagate through all the wasted space.

I think that by putting a newbie forum would benifit the newest of new makers and posers.Then Shop Talk would benifit guys like myself a advanced newbie who would like to see a WIP of a complicated design or some advice on doing a better heat treat on a particular steel.Then I think the most advanced maker would treat guys like me a little better who are serious about becoming a better knife maker. Just my humble opinion.

Mark
 
I think newbs should still be able to read the more advanced stuff. But to post there should require a paid membership.

More advanced makers could still go answer newbie questions if they feel like it.
 
Marko3 said:
I am a new maker.. But I am past all the questions about steel type or can I use a lawnmower blade or a barbeque grill to forge a knife. I have noticed the change since I started following shop talk. It has become a dumping ground for WIP of most basic knife designs and just painfull to navagate through all the wasted space.
Click to expand...

can it be made for a post count minimum instead of a paid/unpaid??? i'm new and would have no problem being able to look on and just watch some of these blades come into being... without being able to post... like marko said... he's past most of the newb questions about steel type/DIY redneck engineering tools... i'm not sure if i'm past all of that yet or not... but i do try... lol... but get another couple hundered posts under my belt and i'll hopefully be beyond the repeticious stage of my learning curve and may well be able to post serious, well thought out questions... but getting beyond that stage would be harder if i weren't thrown into the mix with the higher end users who just get irritated if i'm a complete moron about the questions i ask...
 
james terrio said:
I feel just the opposite, simply because most newbs would never find it. They have enough trouble finding ST itself, often posting in general or M&E. They certainly can't be bothered to browse the stickies if/when they do find their way to ST. Making it more complicated for very basic questions to find their proper place would only make more work for the mods.

I think if a split is deemed necessary, another subforum like ARG for paid, experienced members would work much more smoothly.
Click to expand...

I think you're right. Perhaps there should be a subforum for only experienced makers where only paid members can post and leave Shoptalk to the casual hobbyists. One of the rules would be: you should be a real maker and not a first time hobbyist in order to participate. The problem is lots of good makers don't really want a membership here anymore so they wouldn't contribute. Folks like Brian Fellhoelter, Bruce Bump, Nick Wheeler, Kevin Cashen etc. You can't reasonably ask these people to pay to share their knowledge with us.

So the question becomes, how do we get heavyweight makers here, and get them in an appropriate membership level so they can contribute in the "real knifemakers" forum?

I have a proposal and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

I suggest a new inexpensive level of knifemaker membership that a person can not buy, but it must be invitation only and given to them by Stacy Apelt. It would give the recipient an "honorary knifemaker" membership level that encourages them to come to this forum, enables them to post in the "real makers" forum and post pictures of their work, but not to sale or conduct business. If the membership level cost $10 I would be willing to sponsor one dozen prominent experienced makers of Stacy's choosing for one year. The goal here would be to help improve the caliber of our contributors to the levels we used to have. What say ye Spark?
 
I'm cool with Nathan's idea and will surely sponsor a couple guys if that's the system that's decided upon.

Like 95% of other guys here, my skill falls between the Nick Wheeler or Bruce Bump crowd and some kid wanting to make a knife outta a soup can. The Shoptalk forum has been an awesome source of information and inspiration. I am very serious about improving it. It's not so much that I am annoyed by the large volume of dumb questions, but that the top end guys are running off out of frustration.

Maybe Nathan is on to the more important issue of getting the top dogs to post and giving them a place where only serious makers can ask questions or post their topics. I do think this should be based on financial contribution and not post count. If you're serious about learning, a basic membership should not bother you. The information here is very valuable right?
 
Phillip Patton said:
I think newbs should still be able to read the more advanced stuff. But to post there should require a paid membership.

More advanced makers could still go answer newbie questions if they feel like it.
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This is my opinion also.
I just got tired of saying the same thing over and over. I enjoy showing my work and discussing my hard earned procedures but as a full time smith I can't afford the time to discuss what the stickies already cover. A paid membership isn't asking too much from anybody.
 
Dear Friends,

Has some one actually analyzed the demographics of the "pesky newbies" as to what percentage are unpaid and what percentage have some level of paid membership? I'm just asking because it might be a bummer if all these changes were made and a new paid membership forum still had the same issues. For my part I have been a paying member (the $10 level initially) practically upon my discovery of this awesome forum a handful of years ago. It was such a new world to me then that I spent months just sorting out the basics of the terminology and lingo and tools and such. I'm sure I asked my share of ignorant questions too, even still do. Sorry guys!

Would making changes such as are being explored here really halt the march of new aspirants and/or the perceived exodus of the "masters" and bring them back? Surely this is not the only reason they stopped participating as much as they used to. For instance, I believe I saw some folks drop out on a couple of occasions when there were disappointing management issues being implemented. I also saw abrasive encounters between veterans of different "camps" or methodologies or mindsets result in withdrawals.

Some of this could be a little bit of the chicken or the egg. In general, I've seen folks change their manner of participation in groups when their needs changed, not only when the groups changed. I'm convinced many makers reach a level of accomplishment in the craft to the point where they no longer have the time, need or inclination to participate as they once did. Lets face it, you razzle-dazzle us with your excellence and develop your reputation and client list, your priorities and needs change. Of course when they leave the group, the group does change. When a number of advanced makers no longer need the forum and leave, naturally the percentages of "members" less developed in the craft goes up.

Just to reiterate, I wonder if this line of inquiry is the most spot-on one, or if there might be more appropriate questions...and are we the ones to ask them? After all the only real change we as subscribers can effect is with the quality of our participation (or lack there of).

Happy 5th Day of Christmas!

Aloha, Phil
 
Hi guys :)


I was pointed toward this and the other thread... Thank you for that. :)


Looking at some of the things that have transpired lately, I think instead of starting a thread about "1st knife WIPs" I should have started one that was more like, "It seems different here, anybody agree?" And gone from there.

I sort of pegged myself as this guy that's fed up with "new guys" that's sick of helping them. I love new guys... usually. I think what really prompted my post in the first place was some of the attitude that seems to have come along with SOME new guys.


I REALLY REALLY appreciate Nathan's post here. That's an amazing gesture in an effort to make something change.


What I am struggling with in regard to the two level membership, is how it would work in application versus theory. In theory it sounds like a great solution/improvement. In application I can see where there would be a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings.

Like, "Okay, where do I stand here? Am I a new maker or an experienced one?"

For me personally, especially after (not intentionally!!!) making a lot of guys think I'm some kind of elitist... it would be awkward and uncomfortable to be a self proclaimed experienced maker. ESPECIALLY when in the grand scheme of things, I do not feel like one.

***warning brutal honesty here*** When I am a full time bladesmith and for whatever reasons have been fortunate to have a lot of forum friends, it would be easy to want to think of myself as a "big fish" here... but I keep my mindset about fish size to pond size relegated to when I'm standing behind my table at places like the BLADE show or the ABS EXPO in San Antonio... where I am just a tiny minnow trying to not be crushed by the true behemoths like Tim Hancock, Larry Fuegen, Russ Andrews, John White, Steve Johnson, Bertie Rietveld, I could keep going but it would take all day to finish the list.

So with that in mind, I think of myself as a newbie, an apprentice, an aspiring maker... but not an experienced, or Heaven forbid--- a professional. :eek: :o :foot:


The bottom line for me, is BF Shoptalk has been my favorite forum for YEARS, but lately it feels like something has changed and not in a good way. FWIW- I know I sound like a politician, pointing out a problem but not offering an honest to goodness solution. :( :foot:


Thanks again for the kind words, and even more for trying to improve the forum fellas. :) :thumbup:
 
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NickWheeler said:
I think of myself as a newbie, an apprentice, an aspiring maker... but not an experienced, or Heaven forbid--- a professional.
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Where is that "Slap Behind the Head" function again? ;)

This is because you are humble Nick. I understand that everybody can still learn something and the line where experienced /professional begins can be a tad blurry but you have to know that you left that line far behind a long time ago. :thumbup:

Well I sure hope so cause if not, I'll NEVER reach it myself. :p
 
Let me preface this by stating that I don't spend any time in the ShopTalk area, so I am not fully aware of the dynamics at play. Most of my opinions are just from general forums use and community interactions.

I can understand the need for a Newbie forum, but I don't see the point in a "Oldie" forum. I'm not even sure how that'd work.
 
Spark,
Glad you popped in.

Here is the current proposal:

It seems that the bulk of folks favor leaving Shop Talk alone, and creating a new sub-forum under Shop Talk called "Knifemaking Techniques and Procedures"... an area for discussion of advanced techniques, HT, and materials.....post basic questions in Shop Talk."
It would be a sub-forum of Shop Talk, just like Around the Grinder.

I will be glad to keep track of that forum, and I have found another experienced maker who is willing to join the moderator ranks.

Pretty much everyone is in favor of this...even Nick Wheeler. A few of the older guys who don't come very often have said they may come more now.

So, how can this be arranged?
 
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