Shotgun Tactics Question....

Marion David Poff

Marion David Poff

Joined
Oct 8, 1998
Messages
5,403
So,

I keep reading that the shotgun has often been the choice of pointmen in times of war. Further, the shotgun is often suggested to be an acceptable weapon for home defense.

But, in examining the reloading of a shotgun, I am starting to look over the speed of reload and the window of time that this creates to allow an opponent to take measures.

Did Pointmen only use it until it was empty and then transition to another gun?

For home defense, is the logic that you will not need more than a maximum of 9 rounds?

Any thoughts on this or related issues would be much apprecitated.
 
I'm thinking that if you need more than 9 rounds you are either a bad shot, too far away, or way overmatched! :eek:

However, I have heard of home defense shotguns with shell holders on the stocks to keep an extra load/different ammo handy. While naturally having to reload a shotgun in the thick of things may be less than ideal, anything is better than running out of ammo!
 
I think there are two major aspects to shotguns that make their reloading issues different from handguns.

1) The stopping power of a 12-gauge shot round is vastly greater than that of any handgun bullet. With a handgun you generally plan on firing two or three rounds per attacker, while a shotgun should only require one.

2) When reloading a handgun you will not be able to use the weapon until the procedure is completed. With a shotgun you can replace fired rounds whenever there is a pause without fear that it will interfere if you suddenly need to shoot.

My home defense firearm is a Remington 870HD 12-gauge. The extended magazine holds eight rounds, which should be plenty for the sort of encounters I anticipate.

Just in case, I have a five-shell holder attached to the stock and I keep a pair of six-shell holders nearby. At the range I include tactical reloads as part of my practice drill. I'm not sure whether I would have the presence of mind to reload in the middle of a real firefight, but I am trying to make that an instinctive part of the process.

I'm not sure whether that really answered your questions, but I hope it provides some insight.

--Bob Q
 
Pointmen usually have at least nine other guys behind him usually with one Squad Automatic Weapon, and two Grenadiers. That's just one squad... sometimes there will be a company or platoon within a few hundred yards. Honestly, the pointman will be lucky if he can empty is weapon at all, and if he does, he should be getting cover or beating feet back to his own line. If caught in a killzone, he and whomever else should be charging through the ambush element.

As for shotgun effectiveness, if you're using 00 buchshot, you fire three shells and you've unleashed 36 pellets in half the time a subgun takes to unleash 30 rounds, and, you've kept them in a tighter group than any subgun can be fired in a panic.
 
Shotguns aren't used much, if at all for most military applications. Exceptions are for breaching, security jobs, etc. You have pointed out their greatest weakness, slow loading and low capacity.

If you've never fired a shotgun in an enclosed area, you are in for an experience unless you have hearing protection. At close range, you can miss just as easily with a shotgun as with a pistol/carbine. If you want the least penetration in building materials and maximum effect, plus ease of loading and high capacity, get a 16" AR15 (and earplugs).

Mutt, not trying to be obnoxious, but you can empty and MP5 into one small group. It isn't practical, but it can be done easily.
 
dude, why are people ragging about their 12 gauges? am i the only kid with 8's and 10's in my house?
 
Originally posted by Geraldo
If you want the least penetration in building materials and maximum effect, plus ease of loading and high capacity, get a 16" AR15 (and earplugs).
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people would disagree with you on those two points. The .223 is also a good choice, but even a good expanding round is going to produce less stopping power than a typical 12-gauge shot round. Likewise, the .223 is far more prone to over-penetration than shot.

The AR15 beats a shotgun on speed of loading, ammunition capacity, rate of fire, and accuracy. Shotguns make effective home defense weapons because those are not usually major issues in a that type of scenario. The AR15 is certainly a more flexible weapon overall.

--Bob Q
 
Shotguns in a military role are used in more specialized situations. Brazil issued a Browning Auto-5 for a number of years as standard issue in the Jungle but, that was specialized duty. Urban warfare, building clearance, ship boarding, etc. all have various different standard issue firearms for reasons that may or may not be understood due to unit preferences, commander preferences, etc. One guy with a shotgun backed up by a number of folks with MP-5's and M-16's provides some flexibility in tactics.

For home defense, how many rounds do you really need and how quickly? If you need a single string of fire exceeding 5 rounds, you are probably using inappropriate tactics - this is defense after all and not offense. Unlike a pistol, you can shoot and load as you go. Shoot 2 or 3, load 2 or 3. In a pistol, people are more apt to shoot it dry unexpectedly and then reload which increases the need for a speed reload. This can be overcome with better tactics. If you are faced with more then 2 or 3 attackers in your own home and no time to excercise defensive tactics, you need more help and a protected defensive position. I can replace a 4 year old $70 VCR and, can suffer the comments of other people who have a "house is my castle" philosophy - I'll skip the legal fees and have a good excuse to buy a better VCR.

A lot of the Home Defense aspects come down to training or lack there of. If you can't manage ammo, whether you shoot a 16 round hi-cap pistol or a 30 round rifle, you are apt to run out of ammunition at an inappropriate time. Tactics and training beat poorly used massive firepower. In civil court, how are you going to explain dumping 3 or more Hi-cap mags in a "Self Defense" situation? It happens, win the battle AND the war, let the lawyers and money grubbing relatives goes elsewhere to hit their "LOTTERY".
 
.223 does not overpenetrate like you think. In fact, it is less likely to penetrate building materials than handgun ammo. This isn't my idea, it's based on actual experimentation done by better men than me.

I wasn't trying to say that a good hit with a .223 is better than a good hit with a 12ga. At the ranges we are talking about, both will work well, unless your BG has body armor. My point was that the carbine combines a number of good things (IMO more ammo is NEVER a bad thing).

Personally, I keep pistols for home defense and leave the long guns in the safe. While I would rather fight with a long gun, it's easier to open doors, handle a light or the phone with a pistol. It's also harder for the BG to grab my pistol than a rifle. Whatever you decide to use, have a light or mount one on it.

edited because I noticed the coincidental post number is 223 ;)
 
Originally posted by Geraldo

Mutt, not trying to be obnoxious, but you can empty and MP5 into one small group. It isn't practical, but it can be done easily.
Click to expand...

You may be able to in one burst, But I wasn't, and neither could anyone who was on the range with me...
 
have to go with that
no way in hell you're going to be able to hold the mp5 on rock-and-roll steady
but i think geraldo wasn't talking about one sustained burst

what i think about the shot gun

- doesn't require much skill to aim
"most" homeowners won't be trained marksmen
you can't really expect the average joe to be able to double tap an assailant, right?
the only other weapon i can think of that's more effectively in close quarters is the flamethrower, but that's very bad for your house :)

i have another question though
how much lead is there in a buckshot shotgun round?
compared to say, a handgun bullet? (typical values)
 
Mutt-When I went to HK, the final MP5 drill was a 30 round continuous burst. :eek: This is at CQB distance and just about everybody in the class did one ragged hole in a 2-3" target circle. So it isn't only me. Like I said, it isn't practical, it's done as a check of your stance and technique. My partner shot a smaller group than I did. :o I think your points would be correct regarding open bolt subguns like the M10, Uzi, etc.

DEA-I have missed with a shotgun at close and long range during competition. Both complete misses and partial hits with buck and birdshot while trying to shoot real fast (using IC or MOD choke guns). I've seen a lot of others miss gimme shots during training and qualifications. I'll agree that hitting with a couple OO pellets is better than a total miss, but not much. Some of these misses are caused by flinch, knowing that heavy recoil is about to hit you. That's one of the reasons I feel most people are better served by a different weapon.

Just trying to pass on my experiences. Whatever you choose, practice a lot and get what training you can afford. Don't roll the dice with your life.
 
Geraldo,
I have no idea who you are and what you do, but I mean no offense and make no assumptions in my comments.

Yes, there are men and women out there who run unimaginable distances, stand unbearable hardships and perform unbelievable feats. They fill the ranks of our military, our government agencies and law enforcement departments. Yes, they can do the feats you described, and if you can perform them, my hats off to you. As for me, I'm as average as average comes. For me, I've peppered targets with a subgun at a rental range for fun, but if my life depended on my marksmanship, I'd have to go with a shotgun.
 
The weight of a pistol bullet is measured in grains; the weight of a shotgun load in ounces. 437.5 grains = 1 ounce so a 147 grain 9mm bullet = ~1/3 of an ounce. A shotgun also has a lot more velocity at close range. The effects are not at all comparable ... you just don't want to get hit with a shotgun at close range, not even a light field load of birdshot. At close range the column of shot hasn't spread much yet and it acts like one solid projectile -- one enormous solid projectile. There's no question of what the doctors will have to work with; it's a question of what the undertakers will have to work with and the answer is not much.

.223 penetration depends on bullet design -- full jacket penetrates, soft points explode into fragments when they hit anything at all solid at that velocity and penetrate much less than a pistol. Sometimes people get confused and think they can both penetrate cover and avoid overpenetrating walls ... you can do one or the other, but not both with the same bullet.

A shotgun load opens up approximately 1 inch for each yard it travels (25mm per meter). At typical indoor range of maybe 1-5 yards it's 1-5 inches wide, so you can miss, about as easily as you can with a carbine. You may find it easier to make hits than with a pistol if you put it to your shoulder and shoot properly, but if you think "It's a shotgun, I can't miss" and blaze away from the hip ... people have often emptied guns that way without scoring a single hit at ranges less than six feet (two meters). I know that sounds unbelievable, but people get excited in combat and hip-shooting is not a skill that's easy to practice when you're excited.
 
I don't know which one of you doesn't mind getting hit with 00 pellets, but I guarantee you, if I get hit with just a single pellet, I'm gonna lay down and cry for my momma...:D
 
Mutt, no offense taken. I make no claim to be the best, but I have seen them and had the good fortune to train with a few of them. There is level of shooter that can perform REALLY unbelievable feats with a gun, some are military/LE, but many are civilian.

I'm not saying I won't cry for mama if hit by a single pellet :p but I figure my figure my adversary who is on coke and meth will laugh :eek: and keep on coming.

Back to the original question, if you are bunkered in, use a long gun. If you have to move around, get the kids, etc, take your pistol.
 
Eye, why don't you put July 19th and 20th down on your calendar for a trip over here to the coast. Insights training center offers a shotgun course that will turn you into a scattergun-slinger in no time flat.

I have noticed that you have been frequenting this forum with all sorts of firearm related questions.... long gun, handgun, and now shotgun. These fellas offer training courses in every one of them. Their folding knive course and unarmed defense courses have received very good reviews. Jump on I-90 and put the pedal to the metal 'til you land in Issaquah... (or Bellevue, which will take a couple more minutes).

Heck, let me know.... I may just take the course with ya!
 
00 buck - 9 pellets per 12 guage shell

5 shell tube magazine

A friend of mine that is a surgical tech tells me that the lowest survival rate is for people hit by a 12 guage shotgun load at "close" range. Considering that close range for a shotgun is anything under 50 feet I'd guess that would include anyone shot within a standard house. That's consistant with the "pattern" from both of my 12 guage "riot" guns at 30 feet (one fist sized hole).
 
Originally posted by hso
00 buck - 9 pellets per 12 guage shell
Click to expand...

A quick look on the web says that the standard 2.75 inch holds 12 00 pellets while a 3 inch holds 15.

Now, I do recall a "light" shell that holds 9 made specifically for tactical work because 9 pellets hold a tighter group.
 
OK, imagine you are a point man. You are looking everywhere at once, and trying to take in everything. BAMB!!! Up comes a attacker and you see him after he sees you (they always see you first). You fire a pistol or a rifle? Or you fire a Shotgun that just needs to be pointed in the attackers general direction. Remember that this is a shot that will be taken from the hip so to speak. I would like a shotgun. Now this can be done with other weapons, but the Shotgun does it the best for close range. Just my opinion.

Oh, and the home defence use is great. If you have to use it then in home distances it is devistating. Of course all you need to do is rack the pump and most criminals will jump out the window and run like the wind. Just remember to use low penatration rounds so you don't shoot a loved one in the next room. Bird shot is great for close quarters. At close range it hits like a hammer, but is unlikly to go through both layers of drywall at a distance.
 
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