Shotgun Tactics Question....

A point mans only chance of survival is if the enemy is well trained and effective... otherwise, he's merely a walking bulletcatcher...LOL
 
Of course all you need to do is rack the pump and most criminals will jump out the window and run like the wind.
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Sounds good in theory but, frankly I think its hype.

I put that right up there with John Wayne'ing from the hip and shooting the lights out of the ceiling. Sounds good but, not real world. Okay, your next door neighbor's 16 year old rich yuppie kid might leave when you rack the slide on your good old 870 duck gun but, a hardened criminal or drug user isn't so easily intimidated.

There is a ton of hype regarding shotguns in Home Defense and most of it is spewed forth by people who know nothing about what they are talking about and are just there to sell magazine articles or some product. Try to sort fact from fiction and practice what you preach. I train with my Combat Shotgun, do you? Do you know your patterns at 3 feet, 7 feet, etc? Have you tried all the Buck sizes? Have you tried all the major manufactureres? Can you use slugs like a big rifle? That doesn't even begin to cover tactics.

Rant mode off.

I've listened to a lot of hard headed ill informed home owners who "rack a shotgun" with no ammunition so that if the bad guy takes it away they can't shoot them with it. Okay, I'll just bludgeon you with it. You also have men with the "home is my castle" mentality who will pursue anyone for any reason. My father lost a collegue who chased someone out of his house in an attempt to retrieve something he didn't really care about - the burgular hid behind a bush and ambused and killed him as the homeowner ran by in pursuit.

Think it through before you act. Train before hand so you can use good and safe tactics to defend yourself. Finally, is a 4 year old $70 VCR really worth the legal fees, civil trials, etc?
 
Good points, Sid.

BAMB!!! Up comes a attacker and you see him after he sees you (they always see you first). You fire a pistol or a rifle? Or you fire a Shotgun that just needs to be pointed in the attackers general direction. Remember that this is a shot that will be taken from the hip so to speak. I would like a shotgun. Now this can be done with other weapons, but the Shotgun does it the best for close range. Just my opinion.
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Reality check. If the enemy sees you in the KZ first, you'll probably hear their gunfire and claymores before you see them. Also, they will try and engage the main body, not the point element.
 
agree with geraldo

but in your house, you're the one doing the ambushing, yes?
 
Gentlemen,

Once again you have answered my question, and far beyond my question.

And that is why it is such a pleasure to share this place with you.

MelancholyMutt- Your point about pointmen is well made, though I still wonder what they choose, to reload the shotgun or transition to another gun. I beleive I remember a particular account that mentioned transitioning.
Now, I do recall a "light" shell that holds 9 made specifically for tactical work because 9 pellets hold a tighter group.
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Any documentation on that?

bquinlan- Well put, that strikes me as being right on the mark.

Geraldo- That brings up an interesting point. Are there any hearing protection products that are suitable to a defense or tactical application?

Sid Post- As Always, an excellent contribution. And I think I agree with you about the VCR, by the way you can get them even cheaper at WalMart. Classic example of turning the question on it's head, spot on.

Cougar Allen- Always a Pleasure.

AVelitrious, All- The suggestions to get training is well taken.

hso- Good Info.
 
Sounds like you got more than you bargained for when you asked the original question!

There are many good electronic hearing protectors that amplify ambient noise and blank out the gunfire.
This one is like politics... there probably is not one best answer. Try to take your given circumstances and apply them to the answer, not apply an answer to your cicumstances.

I am a huge proponent for the .223. I like it, I use it, I am capable of "unbelievable feats" (as MelencholyMutt says..really not that hard with training). More impoprtantly I believe in it, because I have trained with both and used both under similar circumstances.

Interesting to me is the 'overpenetration' argument that runs throughout this thread. It is believed that you must use 00buck to get the knockdown power out of the gun but then download it to avoid the overpenatration with 8s or 9s. These are a far cry down the spectrum from the 00buck that is spoke of.

The .223 gets the knockdown and doesn't overpenatrate.

My last thought on this is thet my sititation includes children, I therfore prefer a weapon that can be handled with one hand and operated one handed so that the other may be occupied by the kids. It ust be also very sccurate. As said above a shotgun pattern opens up over distance. The shotguns we train on when shot at 50' will create a swath accross the target. If some one was infront of the badguy there would be no safe shot. Yet with my .223 I can put one where it's needed

Gadget54
 
The books by Gabe Suarez are wonderful, up to date, and realistic, with EXCELLENT illustrations. He is an excellent instructor, and he has "been there and done that" up and including using winning several gunfights.
 
Good posts.

Most 5.56 FMJ will fragment at HD ranges, even in a couple sheets of drywall, because the velocity is still very high. Steel core/green tip penetrators will not but who has those for HD.

Pretty much any longarm is going to do your hearing ugly if unprotected, even moreso indoors.

A good COM shot with a 12ga at normal indoor ranges is pretty much lights out. 00 Buck will penetrate a lot. Something like #2 or #3 will give you slightly smaller pellets but more of them - good tradeoff.


As far as the tactics question... there are fundamentals to good tactics and even 30 rounds in a magazine won't do you any good if you spray and prey (might get lucky). I say only 30 because chances are if you have lame tactics, you won't be able to reload worth a damn, much less in the dark when you are freaking out.

But, tactics specific to a shotgun. I was told that the shotgun is best used as a piece of artillery... that is fire one or two shots from hard cover, return to hard cover and do a tactical reload after chambering the next shell. Keep it stoked with shells, maybe have a shell carrier on board (receiver or buttstock) but definately have a bag of more or better yet a bandolier. Practice reloads Pattern your chosen load, etc.

I'm guessing why some pointmen, etc. use the 12ga is because it puts a LOT of energy in one pull of the trigger. I don't think it's the pointman's job to stand there and trade fire (again, a tactics thing) but to make the intial entry and BANG once if need be, but then get out of the way for the others. Could be wrong...
 
Marion David Poff,

Look here, and article by Wault Rauch...

http://remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/benelli/m1s90.htm

in the 11th paragraph... "Through a federal government contact, I had been sent samples of an experimental load developed by Remington. According to my source, the ammo was loaded in an attempt to develop a light 00 buckshot load that would stay on target through a modified choke to a distance of 25 yards. The ammo contains eight rounds of copper-plated 00 buck. No velocity data is available, but it was the lightest-shooting of all the ammo we fired. In fact, this experimental ammo's so lightly-charged that the Benelli failed to cycle on two occasions and would not lock the bolt back when the last round was fired. Shooting this stuff, we could actually watch the gun cycle. However, the pattern results bore out the 25-yard effective-distance criteria that originally prompted the experimental round."

There is also two Federal Cartridge loads, the # H132 and/or F127, of which H132 is considered a "low recoil shell".

Federal Cartridge Listing
Look under shotgun ammo...
 
I havent been keeping up on all the gun "stuff" like i used to, but i do recall a couple of things from when i was very into guns.

First, it was thought #1 buckshot offered the ideal combination of penetration and number of pellets, i THINK i recall that a 3" #1 buck has 24 .30 cal. pellets at about 1250 fps, and that my friends is a LOT of power! Its also 24 chances to hit the spine and then its game over and thats if you only shoot once. :eek:

Second, if my memory serves, Federal markets a OO Buckshot load with just 9 pellets, its theoretical advantages are lower recoil and tighter patterning, i believe its called their "Tactical" load.

Personally, i used to keep my Remington Marine Magnum loaded with 3" #1 Buck, with 5 more in a sidesaddle and i was very confident i could defend my home. Being 6'8 375 lbs, im not recoil sensitive at all and never felt the need to download to a weaker load, but i do understand that recoil with a SG can be a factor for some people, especially women, thus the downloaded Federal "Tactical" loads.

Now that i live with my new wife, who, for some unfathomable reason doesnt like a big shotgun by the bedside, go figure, i make do with my Glock 17 with +2 floorplate, gives me 20 rounds of +P 124 gr Golden Saber to stop the fight and being im still a fairly decent shooter, im pretty confident, even without the SG, but i do miss it.:)
 
From personal experience I can confidently state that the best weapon for a "pointman" in covered terrain is a light fully automatic rifle chambered in ammunication with relatively low recoil.

Pump shotguns do not put out a sufficient base of fire. The recoil of a 12 gauge precludes effective rapid fire for all but the largest and most practiced of shotgunners.

AK47 and M16 are excellent weapons for the point (and the slack)position. I know of none better.
 
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