Shotgun?

Winchester 97 20 inch riot version...

Damn- I just missed one and a nice one to boot- to slow again..
 
I was a strong proponent of the Rem 870 until Remington took the huge deal to stay in NY and support their anti-civilian gun laws. Now I would recommend the Mossberg 590.
 
There is no real difference between the express and the wingmaster except the coating. Even police models jus have a few trigger group "upgrades". The all metal trigger guard is actually just powered metal. The standard plastic gaurd will be more shock resistant and corrosion resistant. Will a 1970 wingmaster be smoother than a new express? Yep, sure will. Doesnt mean anything. As for the op's question. Maybe you could go down to a local gun club and ask some guys there? I'm sure they know what they're talking about and you could probably get to hold a shoot a couple shotguns in the process.
 
The1trueBeavis said:
There is no real difference between the express and the wingmaster except the coating. Even police models jus have a few trigger group "upgrades". The all metal trigger guard is actually just powered metal. The standard plastic gaurd will be more shock resistant and corrosion resistant. Will a 1970 wingmaster be smoother than a new express? Yep, sure will. Doesnt mean anything. As for the op's question. Maybe you could go down to a local gun club and ask some guys there? I'm sure they know what they're talking about and you could probably get to hold a shoot a couple shotguns in the process.
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This is satire, right?
The wingmasters are head and shoulders above the express models.

The guys at the gun club will most likely be opinionated fanboys. "Buy a citori" "buy a montefeltro" "buy a Red label"

The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style plastic magazine retention system, EXCEPT on the extended magazine versions, which do NOT have the dimples.
A rougher finish inside and outside, with machine marks and some burrs left.
A rougher, bead blasted blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece sleeved barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end and pressed-in checkering.
The Defense version has 18", Cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
The Marine Magnum and Tactical models have plated or polymer finishes.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.

The Wingmaster has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Wingmaster gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A fine, commercial polished blue finish.
A polished bore.
A chrome plated bolt.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut stocks with the famous "Bowling Pin" finish in gloss or satin. and better checkering.
Wide choices in barrel lengths and choke options.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Wingmaster is the full top-of-the-line commercial Remington pump gun, and is priced accordingly.

The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Police gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing and is built in a special area of the plant from 100% inspected parts.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
The Remington “R3” super recoil pad that reduces felt recoil by 30%.
Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Police options like magazine extenders, forearms with built-in lights, and sling swivels.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Heavy-duty shell lifter spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
 
The OP didn't say he wanted to add a mg ext. any where in his post. The express is available in rem choke. I'm guessing the OP wants a new gun also. The wingmaster is more than twice the price of the express. Is the chrome bolt and metal trigger guard upgrades really worth it? Especially considering the fact that the you can't buy a 870 with a 26-28" barrel and a 18" inch barrel in a combo deal (its not listed on. He would have to put down extra money for the extra barrel. The aluminum trigger guard will show wear and be less impact resistant. The express springs will work fine and arent needed unless you plan on storming a beach :). The chrome bolt and other upgrades don't really matter and in my opinion aren't worth the price of of the wingmaster. The action isn't covered in tool marks and burrs. mine is perfectly smooth and reliable. MIM parts have come a long way and are perfectly reliable. Is the express better than the wingmaster? NOPE. But are the wingmasters extra features really needed in a skeet gun? NOPE. The express is fine for a skeet/home defense gun. It was just my opinion and I won't go back and forth anymore. OP, sorry for starting a scuffle in your thread. I think the express would work just fine for you. Also, what's the difference between going to a gun club and a forum?
 
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The1trueBeavis said:
The OP didn't say he wanted to add a mg ext. any where in his post. The express is available in rem choke. I'm guessing the OP wants a new gun also. The wingmaster is more than twice the price of the express. Is the chrome bolt and metal trigger guard upgrades really worth it? Especially considering the fact that the you can't buy a 870 with a 26-28" barrel and a 18" inch barrel in a combo deal (its not listed on. He would have to put down extra money for the extra barrel. The aluminum trigger guard will show wear and be less impact resistant. The express springs will work fine and arent needed unless you plan on storming a beach :). The chrome bolt and other upgrades don't really matter and in my opinion aren't worth the price of of the wingmaster. The action isn't covered in tool marks and burrs. mine is perfectly smooth and reliable. MIM parts have come a long way and are perfectly reliable. Is the express better than the wingmaster? NOPE. But are the wingmasters extra features really needed in a skeet gun? NOPE. The express is fine for a skeet/home defense gun. It was just my opinion and I won't go back and forth anymore. OP, sorry for starting a scuffle in your thread. I think the express would work just fine for you. Also, what's the difference between going to a gun club and a forum?
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Little of what you said is relevant. You stated your opinions and what you value in a sporting shotgun based on your budget, taste, etc.
There are distinct differences in the models whether you can see them or realize it or not. The OP should be aware of this.
The OP mentioned a dual purpose gun. I would find it rather unwise to use a 4+1 shotgun (standard express config) for HD. That creates a need for a mag extension. I wouldn't use a shotgun at all but that's neither here nor there.

Maybe the OP will run his gun hard enough to warrant upgraded springs. I laid out the facts so he could be an informed consumer. You told the OP what you thought he needs like a helicopter parent.

IIRC, the OP never stated a budget. You're basically saying nobody should own a sebenza because a S&W knife works just fine.

A gun forum allows people to post facts in a simple manner which gives the end user immediate ability to cross check and compare data as well as shop for the best price. Maybe you go to different ranges than I do but I'll take the combined wisdom and information of the internet over bubba at the range anyday.
Good luck OP
 
I said I wouldn't post anymore because I didn't want to start a fight but when you stated fallacies I now feel the need to respond.
"Maybe the OP will run his gun hard enough to warrant upgraded springs" maybe he will, if someone asks for a utility folder you don't recommend a fixed blade because you think they might need one. You tell them about a good folder.

"IIRC, the OP never stated a budget." Right, but if someone asked for a edc blade you wouldn't recommend a Sebenza, Strider, or a custom knife would you?
I also never said no one should ever own a Wingmaster. I said the express would work fine for a occasional shooter who wants a reliable gun. Don't insinuate I said something I didn't. I'm also sorry that I didn't recognize your gun club/ forum prowess. I didn't realize you had visited and researched every one in the OP's area. As you must have done to make such a sweeping statement as that. Maybe the OP wants a mag ext and maybe he doesn't. Since he didn't say anything about it I assumed he didn't want one. He's probably just sitting at his computer reading about us squabbling about what someone said on the internet.
 
Thanks for the reply.

"Maybe the OP will run his gun hard enough to warrant upgraded springs" maybe he will, if someone asks for a utility folder you don't recommend a fixed blade because you think they might need one. You tell them about a good folder. He stated he was after a pump or semi auto. I did not recommend a side by side so your argument is invalid. I recommended a semi and also stated I was happy with my current semi.

I will continue, as a habit, to provide more information and allow the OP and other readers to form an educated opinion based on available products and their specs, not just blindly advise the OP to do what I do/buy what I buy.

And yes, ask a question without stating a budget and I will 100% recommend top shelf products. I'm optimistic and like to think everyone is blessed and successful and can afford the luxuries. Tell me you're on fixed income supporting a family and I will adjust my recommendations accordingly.

I never claimed to hold any prowess, merely stated my opinion and methods as well as the rationale behind those choices on gathering intel. Money says you will be laughed off the block if you ask the guys at the gun club if it's cool to shoot games with a $300 870. Where I shoot, you got looked down on if it's not a least a Citori and more like a Perazzi

Maybe the OP wants a mag ext and maybe he doesn't. Since he didn't say anything about it I assumed he didn't want one. Like I said, I gave him info and options.

He's probably just sitting at his computer reading about us squabbling about what someone said on the internet. That doesn't bother me one bit

Lastly, a 870 wingmaster isn't exactly the pinnacle of games guns either.
 
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I would jump on the 870 band wagon, for the most part. Lots of good choices out there though. FWIW my Remmingotn 11-87 handles recoil VERY nicely and my H&R Pardner, while being a Chinese clone 870, shoots like a champ if you don't mind a heavy weapon.
 
I've been wanting a pump shotgun (for HD, critter control and fun) off and on for a couple, of years now, and I've decided to treat myself to an H&R Pardner Protector in a couple of weeks for my birthday.

I have read and read and read about these, and they seem like a great deal.
 
Nimick said:
Not to thread drift, but I'm interested to know your reservations about the nova. I have a supernova and I love it. I bought the "hd" version w/ the 18 1/2" barrel and I would like to get a longer one for clays/turkey. But it works alright for those applications. The LOP is a little long but you get used to it.

Recoil feels significantly less than my mossberg 500. Especially with steel loads.
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A funny thing about Benellis. Don't dare say anything that a Benelli owner might construe as something negative. When I have told Benelli owners that their barrels
we not suitable for modification, I could almost feel their hands reaching through the wire to choke me.

What I have found in dealing with customers is that most are very defensive when it comes to their guns. Tell them that theirs has a design problem and you might
as well tell them that their pickup is junk and their dog is ugly. :eek:

When the Nova first came out, a customer sent it to us for modification. We sent it back because it wasn't suitable for our mods.

Personally, I think the lowly Mossberg is one of the most practical shotguns. It's not pretty, but all parts are field replaceable. We have sold hundreds to various
law enforcement agencies. They do not treat their guns gently and we never had a problem with them. The only real problem we had with 870s is a broken ejector
and a gunsmith can fix that easily.

RE: Remington 870 Express. "Don't believe everything you read on the internet." Abraham Lincoln
 
Mossberg all the way for me. 500/590/Maverick 88 are wonderful pumps, and the 930 (had the JM model for a while) is also very nice.
 
You can beat this topic to death and never come to any conclusions.
For utility use especially if it's going to get kicked around and not fired much I'd suggest going for a mid grade pump. Many of the low grade guns are clunky and have glacial lock times. Autos are fussy especially if you don't keep them squeaky clean and/or you figure they'll fire and cycle any convenient ammo. Aside from the nearly bomb proof old Browning Auto 5s you rarely see older semis in use where reliability is a concern.
Really neat thing about the classic Win 12 and the Ithaca 37 (and maybe even Rem 31) pumps is you can hold back the trigger and the gun will go off as fast as you can shuck the fore end.
I'm a vintage 870 guy (got rid of all my semiautos 35 years ago) but not of the Express models. They are crudely made and finished compared to the Wingmaster version. The suggestions on here about saving money and buying an older 2 3/4-chambered 870 Wingmaster is a very good one; a newer or aftermarket 3 inch chamber vent rib barrel fits and a gunsmith can convert the receiver over to 3 inch at very little expense.
Of course if absolute reliability is essential then take a long and hard look at an over and under. Once you stuff 2 of any old GD shells into those barrels and manage to get the action closed, they'll go no matter what.
 
red1965 said:
What??870 Express a POS? Wow, I never have heard that....I guess I will take the one I have ran over 5000 shells through and dispose of it....
I have replaced the mag tube spring and follower. That is the only parts I have replaced. I have shot squirrels, skeet, turkey shoots, 3 gun (with a barrel swap), and countless rabbits with this shotgun over the years, and have never had a problem. Maybe you just got a lemon. Even though I recommended a FN, you can't go wrong with an 870. The Express & Wingmaster are both good guns.
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It's widely held that the Express is an inferior shotgun. The Express features laminate furniture, and the Wingmaster uses Walnut. The Express features injection molded parts, and the wingmaster has forged (Extractor and Ejector in particular). The fit and finish on the Wingmaster is superior. The express is crudely finished. The barrel nut on the wingmaster is better, the express is cheaper. People have said that the parts are the same (many gun store owners will tell people that, and I don't know if Remington feeds them that or if it's just a misconception), but that's not true.

Basically every single part on the express is done in the cheapest manner possible. None of the changes were an improvement I hate to say. I can smooth out the action on an Express so it's really nice, but go to a gun shop and check the action n a new Express and a Wingmaster, and you'll notice a difference in most cases.

Does that mean the Express isn't going to shoot straight? No, and unless you shoot every day you're not going to wear out the extractor on a pump shotgun anytime soon. The thing is, a shotgun doesn't need a high rate of fit and finish to work properly, and that was Remington's thinking when they made the Express. The fact is though, the express costs so much less because it's relatively junky. I don't know every shortcut and deficiency that they use to make an express so cheap, but every few years I find out about another one because it causes me or a family member problems. You can take them apart and check them out yourself - things like the indentions on the barrel nuts may not seem like a big deal to most people, but the Wingmaster's is superior, and the only reason the Express is different is because it's cheaper to make them that way. Other parts like the ejector and extractor, you have cheaper methods making parts that look very similar. They'll work for the most part, but the forged parts are fitted better, and experienced shooters prefer them. I would love to have one of Remington's Engineers explain all the differences, but they'll never do that because they want the public to think that the only difference between the express and the WIngmaster is engraving,
 
Ok here is my opinion any of the established gunmakers pump gun will fit the O.P.'s needs buy the on that feels best/fits you best and shoot the thing . Here is the one thing that erks me on H.D. guns unless you have pissed off a drug cartel or the mob enough you think they are sending parimilitary hit team after you 4+1 of a standard pump gun is all you need even then if it is several again 1 and your chances are slim anyway average home intruders that survive the first round aren't sticking around to see how many rounds you have. bottom line is if you can't get it done with 5 rounds you are in deep doodoo anyway

Roy
 
Had the Moss 500 for years that was passed from Pappy and for the money you can't beat it.The Rem 870 series has served me well for years and is a step up from the 500 in my opinion.My Benelli Nova has served me well the past few years and a pleasure to shoot after upgrading the recoil pad to a limbsaver.My favorite line is the Beretta auto loader shotgun lineup.If you are on a budget, then I recommend an Rem 870 express.If you are willing to pony up the dough, then I suggest a Beretta.The Nova is a great pump for the money, and somewhere in between.Good luck and I hope you have a happy shoulder....

PS: I see a Moss 500 model on sale now and then for around 3 bills that comes with two barrels a short and a long barrel. May be that model would fit your need for home defense and sporting purposes.It takes about 30 seconds to switch the barrels and will take 3.5 mag shells or slugs.



salmonkiller
 
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Ithaca M37. Longest running production model on earth. Has ridden in more police cars than any other. The action is bullet proof and ejects out the bottom so is good for leftys or rightys. New ones are a little spendy but there are many used ones out there.
 
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