Should education have a price ?

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Kevin the grey

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
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Education should be free ? Yes , at a simple overview level education should be made available to all . If we deny another we are kind of shooting ourselves in the foot .In the long run that is only logical .

To this logic reason has to be applied . What good is this knowledge if it leads to harm ? What good is it if those who become educated to the form are ignorant of the function . They can end up thinking in abstract forms about concrete functions . Not worse yet stilted is that they may think of abstracts in concrete terms .

It is good to look at the other side of the coin . It is not good if that coin only reflects our needs . In this respect it is not what we are taught that is of primary importance . It is how we are taught . Self observation is a tricky skill . If our education focuses mostly upon learning and not how to learn then it is often too late for someone to learn from themselves . We become too adept at fooling ourselves into beleiving our motives are other than what they are .

Need can become greed . Developing ones Ego leads to being egotistical instead of simply being proud of ones accomplishments . Motive and method become crutches instead of tools .

Education must have a price in that we must instill values with it . Striving to achieve must be more than straining to reach for the computer on switch .
 
Education is not the same thing as training, though the two are often confused. Education is fundamentally about opening the mind; training is about acquiring skills.

While both are costly, not providing them is more costly.
 
I appreciate the distinction Tom . It does help to clarify when we put things into terms familiar to ourselves . The title should have read " Should knowledge have a price ? "

I agree with you in that in some peoples view education is just training . You can train a monkey to strike matches . I don,t want it in charge of making fires . L:O:L
 
Kevin the grey said:
I appreciate the distinction Tom . It does help to clarify when we put things into terms familiar to ourselves . The title should have read " Should knowledge have a price ? "

I agree with you in that in some peoples view education is just training . You can train a monkey to strike matches . I don,t want it in charge of making fires . L:O:L
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Ask the government and the schools and universities......they charge a lot more for international students....so the government must be subsidizing a lot for the local kids :)
 
Astrodada said:
Ask the government and the schools and universities......they charge a lot more for international students....so the government must be subsidizing a lot for the local kids :)
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It is not free to me. I am certainly subsidizing a lot of local kids!

I just paid property taxes on one of my buildings in the amount of $15,000. The breakdown was $9500 school taxes. $150 State Taxes and about $5350 county taxes.

I would feel better about this if I saw education making a bigger difference. Subjects with more relevance being taught. A better focus on teamwork and networking to get ahead in lif and business.
 
Are we talking education or schools?

Schools, especially in the younger grades, exist more to socialize than to educate.
 
Bill Marsh said:
It is not free to me. I am certainly subsidizing a lot of local kids!

I just paid property taxes on one of my buildings in the amount of $15,000. The breakdown was $9500 school taxes. $150 State Taxes and about $5350 county taxes.

I would feel better about this if I saw education making a bigger difference. Subjects with more relevance being taught. A better focus on teamwork and networking to get ahead in lif and business.
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Hey the word is FOCUS I'd agree....more on the teamwork. The japanese is extremely proficienct on teamwork which the American lacks but innovation is still the strength that the the USA can depend on.
 
My good wife teaches English lit at the local university, as a part-time sessional lecturer. Has done, in 3 or 4 different universities and colleges, over the past 20 or so years.

In that time, the wants of students have changed substantially. She wants to educate - to open minds, to prompt people to confront ideas and figure out what they think. Not incidentally, she wants people to be able to put one word behind another, and express what's in their heads.

In contrast, many students now view a university degree as a commodity to be purchased. "What do I have to do to get an A?" Which really means "how do I get value for money in this financial transaction?"

I know why the students want their As - it all translates into potential scholarship money, and resume building. The degree itself is really a job qualification - not an opportunity to break apart and re-cast how you think in both a more expansive and a more disciplined way. No, it's about getting a job.

I mourn what education used to be like - or rather, the values which permeated the collaborative exercize that is education. They still exist in some minor way, but it's not the norm.
 
I think collaboration is the key. Which the asian countries are so good at , and which in the americas .that word has almost become a taboo that individualism and creativity is advocated to an extent inovations are done but fruits on that innovations are not supported but only Used but others which have the minds of refining and improving....the Japanese.... they have found themself a better starting point in which the open mindiness of collaboration to the common good is nore benificial to the whole socialty rather than personal good.
 
Well said gentleman , one and all .

Quote Astrdada
the Japanese.... they have found themself a better starting point in which the open mindiness of collaboration to the common good is nore benificial to the whole socialty rather than personal good.Quote

Do you really think it is openmindedness ? Could it also not be expressed as singlemindedness ? They seem to be more a closed society than one which could be described as openminded . I do not mean this as in small minded . I come from a society that is very closeminded . It is not that they are small minded so much as they view themselves as complete .

Getting back to the Japanese . Is it for the common good or for economic health ? It can be that I view the " common good " from a western ideal .
 
Just wanted to qualify something I said earlier.

While education and training may start out as separate streams, separate objectives, they converge.

If the purpose of education is opening one's mind .. well, the focus needed to learn, I mean really LEARN a skill can also bring that, by another route. The focus in fine craftsmanship is almost like meditation, and you learn more in the doing of it ... whether that's woodworking, or instrument building, or knifemaking (I'd expect) than simply the skill itself. You learn about yourself, about the nature of materials, and if you care to extrapolate, about the nature of relationships.

Similarly, education as a process of opening one's mind involves acquiring a bunch of quite specific, and maybe esoteric skills. In various enterprises, I've had to learn how to read Hebrew, and how to understand economic theory. What French contemporary social theory is about, how to read medical research into brain development, how to do quantitative statistical analyses. Those are as technical as learning to weld or cut a fine mortise and tenon joint ...

So education and training do converge, and are each necessary for the completion of the other ... and the completion of the person.
 
Once upon a time, parents told their younkers that they needed an education and lit the kid's backside up if he wasn't diligent enough in trying to get one. I remember saying "Yes, Mam" and "No Sir" and meaning it, and actually applying (dare I say it?) EFFORT into my studies. Three quarters of my kids at school are there to socialize, and expect all will be handed to them for their charm and good looks (Did I mention tatoos and body piercings?). I blame disengagment by the parents from their childrens lives, and the ubitquitous electronic entertainment available on every side. If the kid doesn't like what you parents are saying he simply returns to the womb of surround sound and video gaming. I am soon to retire from a second career teaching your children, and I suggest you take charge of your kids now, or face a generation of wandering derelicts. You choose.
 
I agree with you about disengagement of parents to children.
Disengagement from adults to their employment, to the neighbors, and just about everyone else.



munk
 
No chance to get fancy with new threads.....for those who read this, we have had a death in the family and will be out of state for ...a week? I will miss seeing what youse guys are up too...........but it's time to pick up the mantle as the oldest surviving member of my clan (that sept or ? sub group ?). Ciao!
 
Kevin the grey said:
Education should be free....
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There are no free lunches. "Free" usually means being coerced to pay an exhorbitant amount for a product with zero choice over quality or quantity.

On the contrary education should be affordable, and definable. We should be able to earn a degree in our field without having to saddle our efforts with a massive load of course work on arcane subjects which few would study if they were not required. At lower levels we should eliminate everything that does not directly contribute to the 3Rs. As much as I have come to appreciate the philosophy and the arts; these are things which can be better appreciated later in life, and which are best approached by people who are well equipped with a solid foundation in the basic building blocks of education; people who have learned to define issues, to research, and to learn on their own. It is also better done by people who have the skills to make them marketable to the workforce. Adding a 30-50% burden on a 4 year degree, with things like classical arts, foreign languages, mythology, phlosophy, music, and other unmarketable bits is a costly waste of time and money.

n2s
 
TomFetter said:
In contrast, many students now view a university degree as a commodity to be purchased. "What do I have to do to get an A?" Which really means "how do I get value for money in this financial transaction?"

I know why the students want their As - it all translates into potential scholarship money, and resume building. The degree itself is really a job qualification - not an opportunity to break apart and re-cast how you think in both a more expansive and a more disciplined way. No, it's about getting a job.

I mourn what education used to be like - or rather, the values which permeated the collaborative exercize that is education. They still exist in some minor way, but it's not the norm.
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not2sharp said:
...At lower levels we should eliminate everything that does not directly contribute to the 3Rs. As much as I have come to appreciate the philosophy and the arts; these are things which can be better appreciated later in life, and which are best approached by people who are well equipped with a solid foundation in the basic building blocks of education; people who have learned to define issues, to research, and to learn on their own. It is also better done by people who have the skills to make them marketable to the workforce. Adding a 30-50% burden on a 4 year degree, with things like classical arts, foreign languages, mythology, phlosophy, music, and other unmarketable bits is a costly waste of time and money.

n2s
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Hmmm... methinks I see a difference of opinion here. Let's see if I can't come down somewhere in the middle. *edit: been writing for a while, and looks like that ain't gonna happen*

The fact (I would call it a sad fact, others would not) is that frankly, an undergraduate degree is one of two things. It is either a resume builder that helps you move in a direction you want after graduation (political science, philosophy, literature, etc.) or it is partial proof that you have a certain skill set (education, nursing, etc.). n2s, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you are essentially advocating that option 1 be taken off the table and all pre-masters education should be directed towards either a specific skill needed for a specific job or a general skill set that will probably be needed in many/most jobs (the 3 Rs). I strongly disagree with that.

I find the idea that all education should be reduced to job training and learning "marketable" skills abhorent. I mean no offense, but that's the simple truth. A degree is about your resume and getting a job. The path you take to get there is about expanding your world and bettering yourself. Are there some jobs that require that an education be directed solely or mostly towards skill development? Yes. Are there many others that do not? Yes. We should not force people into little predetermined boxes and tell them that if they want to expand their horizons they're going to have to do it on thier own damn time, because school is about the market and jobs, damnit!

Doing that sort of thing to college students turns my stomach. Advocating it for school age children honestly scares me. When I was in third grade my teacher wanted to test me for special ed. I had a great teacher in fourth grade and an amazing one for fifth and sixth. In that woman's class I did few things that were directed simply at the three Rs and fewer still that fit the "do this to prepare for this to prepare for this to prepare to get a job" mold. I designed and drew a map of a continent, I saw an egg in a contraption I built dropped off of the school, I designed a (failed) hampster powered generator, I did the cotton ball shot put and made a boat out of water bottles and tinfoil. I had recess and listened to stories. And you know what? I went from that proposed special ed test to being a straight A student reading Stephen King for fun over summer break. I guarentee you if I had been forced to do only what would have "prepared" me for whatever I would be far, far less prepared for what's to come in my life than I am now.


Well, that was a lot of writing. Wasn't expecting that! :D
 
Well education or the lack of it always has a cost to society.

It Depends on whether the country wants its populaton to be educated potential entrenapurs & buisnessmen or whether they prefer "dummers." who work 40 to 60 hours a week for minimum wage. { they were called "peasents" or the "unwashed" in the old days.}

Id prefer free education myself, but then I belive in free water & air as well, as basic fundemental human rights..

Spiral.
 
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