Should education have a price ?

[not2sharp]

n2s, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you are essentially advocating that option 1 be taken off the table and all pre-masters education should be directed towards either a specific skill needed for a specific job or a general skill set that will probably be needed in many/most jobs (the 3 Rs).

Not at all. The programs should stay; I only advocate that they shouldn't be funded from public funds, nor mandatorily impose on those students who would rather not make the investment. With tuition for a traditional 4 year degree running around $100,000.00; and, the BA/BS becoming a standard minimum for many employers, something has to give.

n2s

 

[Kevin the grey]

Gentlemen I must admit that I see this from a different level than some here .
I do see the good of tailoring an education to the needs of society and also to make better use of funding .

On a basic level it is done in Ontario where an apprentice Electrician is not given the entire apprenticeship training immediately . He is only taught what a first year apprentice need know . He then works for one year to see if he is suited for the work . This saves the money and time for the full training if it is determined he is unfit or branches off into a similar trade .

It is much tougher on the student as a young man who has started to work will not relish returning to school .

On another level I suspect it may be that those students who opt out of unnecessary education such as philosophy may be the very ones who need it the most . It is not just the needs of a society which must be met . Leaving sophistication aside which I am decidedly not it has been my observation that even those who I have deemed to be more intelligent than myself are lacking in areas which leave me staggered .

I do agree that these lacks may be in areas which are not easy to define . When I posted the original title as " Should education have a price ? " It was not just money I was speaking of . It was also on a spiritual level . Whether University graduate , tradesman or young business owner it seems to me there is a common thread among them . A very self serving cold heartedness.

I do not mean this on such a level as to be blatantly obvious . Over time through observation and conversation it has become obvious to me there is very little thought for anyone different than themselves to the point they cannot fathom the need for it . Their philosophy is one of controlled greed or at least self centeredness . Their idea of self fulfilment is only to see to their needs.

 

[The_Shadow]

Well, this is a good thread.
There is a problem here that has not been addressed, though, and that is the growing tendency of business to demand a degree of job-seekers.
I'm a computer programmer. When I got into this business in the '80s, programming was sort of a dark art, and if you could write programs, nobody cared if you had a degree or anything, they judged you on what you could do. That is how I got into the field.
In the '90s, the trend began to be that programmers must have a bachelor's degree, no matter what it is in, just had to have a degree. So, I finished my degree at night and got one (Computer Science).
Today, if you want to write software you had better have a degree (or live in India) or there is pretty much no reason to apply for the job. Now, Some of the best programmers I ever met had no degree, but they were great at software. These people have trouble getting in the door today.
Because of this, you see the "what do I need to do to get an A" mentality that was talked about. The kids are smart enough to know that it does not matter what they can or cannot do, what matters is the piece of paper. So, they just want to get the paper and get on with life. You can't blame them.

 

[namaarie]

As a college student, I think this thread is very good. Wasn't what I expected, but it is very good.

I go to a rather different school than most people, I feel. Where I go, I really think the students value their education a lot. Very interesting classes, an emphasis on individual thought and less on "training," as was defined earlier in this thread. That said, I understand what The Shadow is saying exactly. Many facets of the modern educational system in the United States are seen by students to be little more than "resume building." Which school did you go to, what grades did you get, how will this all affect what grad school you go to and how much financial aid will you get? These are all very real considerations, and students today are taught how manipulate these to get ahead in this competitive market. That's just how it works.

And yes, school costs a lot nowadays. Once again, believe me when I say I know this. I go to a very high-quality private liberal arts college, and I know that between this and grad school, I will surely be looking at a substantial 6-figure investment by the end. But I know that it will pay off for me.

I also know that it won't pay off for everybody. Some people don't want to go to college. They don't want white-collar jobs. They don't want to be doctor or lawyers someday. My old roommate, for instance, would like nothing more than to mix music or weld as a career. So why's he coming to a school like this? It's because that's what kids who are able do today. That's what's expected. College is a natural stage of a young person's existence in today's society. Is that right or economically reasonable, both societally and at a personal level for a lot of folks? Probably not. But it's how it is. I am concerned that a lot of people now are going down a road determined by their parents and societal pressure that will not be fulfilling to them. That things, as they stand, will lead to some very serious problems down the road for a lot of people.

But having said all this, I must note that I truly could not be happier doing what I'm doing. Right now, I'm majoring in Political Science but planning on going to Med School. Weird combination, I know, but it sure is interesting. I think I want to be a doctor, but don't want to major in an undergraduate science. I am ecstatic that I am able to both prepare myself for my envisioned career and pursue the academic tangents that I only can right now, at this point in my life. If I didn't, I'd always regret it.

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that, while this system has its limitation, it has worked and is working extremely well for me. As far as I'm concerned, I'd change very little for myself, buy I acknowledge that it doesn't work all that well for a lot of others.

Of course, it would be great if it cost less.

Chris

 

[hollowdweller]

I agree with you about disengagement of parents to children.
Disengagement from adults to their employment, to the neighbors, and just about everyone else.



munk

Amen. I think mandatory overtime, 2 parents working, and all the organized activities kids have to go to these days are a greater threat to the family than gay marriage or any of the other hot button social issues when you get right down to it.

Some of the best, most well rounded kids I know have A) one parent who stays home and not only takes care of but is friends with their kids and B) plenty of free time to ponder things and think up their own fun.