Should I send my C/U 7 in?

That's fine and once again entirely your choice what you do with your knives, but perhaps you'll be willing to answer this question for me, it has been avoided thus far.

What use do you think IS appropriate for these knives that constitutes hard field use, or use that could not be as easily carried out by a smaller, thinner knife with a narrower profile? Now, I have plenty of knives that are thicker and heavier than the Beckers but 3/16" is nothing to sneeze at, and the 2/3 height flat grind used on the C/U7 is not optimized for cutting. That flat section of full-stock thickness running along the top is there for strength. Unless Ethan Becker and the folks at Camillus just don't have any idea of what they're doing, there has to be a reason for all of that steel there, right? I ask again, what use do you think is within the "appropriate" capabilities of this knife that couldn't be carried out by a 7" bladed butcher knife with a 1/16" spine, and would thereby justify the Becker's weight and the comparative loss of cutting efficiency? And again, I'll remind you that a butcher knife like the one described was used by me to split a whole mess of 4-6" diameter logs back when.

Edit to add: You might want to check out reply #8 in this thread where Ethan Becker specifically refers to the C/U7's chopping ability as well as the need to employ a baton for larger wood.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184828&highlight=baton
 
I've split fire wood with my 7 on a few ocaisions without a problem. I don't make regular practice of it though.

It does work well indoors when swinging a hatchet isn't an option. Cleaner than using a saw as well. Cutting fire wood indoors is another task that I try not to do too often. When its 9 degrees fahrenheit outside and you're trying to get the deer camp cabin heated up, I'm splittin' the stuff indoors. The becker does fine on anything relatively knot free and no more than 5" across. More than likely 4" is going to be the max I baton through.

It isn't a matter of one generation knowing better than the other. Its simple marketing. How many knives would Busse or Becker or Chris Reeves sell if their marketing was simply "Our knives cut very well."?

Even the higher end semi-custom knives are touting the strength of their blades and demonstrating it by pounding their $200+ knives through stuff most would cringe at. Heres an example:

normal_strength6.jpg

normal_strength3.jpg

normal_strength2.jpg


Yes, thats a ball peen hammer.

Its how companies sell their stuff today. It goes along with the old infomercials where lighter fluid was spilled on the hood of a car then set on fire. "Look! our wax will protect your finish from FIRE:eek: !" :jerkit:

Will these knives hold up to this type of abuse? probably. Are there better options for day to day use? more than likely.

I have to say I respect both Codgers and t1's opinions. Being from different camps is what makes a debate work. Otherwise many posts could be answered with a simple yes or no. How much fun would that be?

cs
 
You're right, there is some level of sensationalism in almost all areas of advertising today, and there is certainly room for more than one opinion here. I just can't agree that batoning with these knives is in any way shape or form pushing them to their limits. I was batoning with knives long before I had any idea who Becker, Busse, or any of these others were around.

Another thing to consider, if we want to temporarily entertain the generation-gap thing, is that the best knives today very different tools from what was available even 30 years ago, and certainly in comparison to those from half a century and a full century ago. Improvements in metallurgy and HT methods have taken us a good ways past when 1095 or 440 stainless at 55-57 HRC were state of the art.
 
Bottom line ________ These knives were designed with batoning in mind. You did not abuse your knife as it was designed for use with a baton, however you have to be careful to not exert much force to the tip of the bk7 with a baton and especially be careful not to pry with the tip. The bk9 is the better choice as it has a stronger point but i still wouldnt pry with the point of the 9 either but it will be more forgiving when pounding on the spine with a baton if you hit the point! I have become very fond of the bk10 though shorter and not really a chopper it's a good choice for camp work as is the thicker campanion. If i really like a certain knife such as the 7 or any of my other Beckers i always buy two just in case i do break or lose one and as affordable as the 7 is i would pick up a spare and then it wont matter how long it takes for replacement.
 
I don't want to jump off into the batoning debate, If i were you i would be hesitant to send it in to camillus at this time due to the current state of affairs{strike, possible closure,etc} I'm sure if this had happened a couple of months ago camillus would have fixed or replaced your knife no questions asked but at this time I would really be nervous sending it in. I would say you have 3 choices, 1, regrind the tip, 2, trade it off and get something else, 3 send it in to camillus and roll the dice of fate. oddly enough as i type this they came out in the order i would do them if i were you. good luck, ahgar

btw, with this knife and the method you described i don't think this is abuse.
 
ahgar said:
1, regrind the tip, 2, trade it off and get something else, 3 send it in to camillus and roll the dice of fate.
Click to expand...

1, A Tanto style grind would be easy enough.

2, Wanna trade that broken BK7 for a Manila Folder Butterfly?

3, Send it to Camillus. I have a feeling things are't going to get better in NY. Once the dust settles you might be dealing with taylor (much like Schrade) ant they won't honor your warranty anyway.

At the absolute worst, Camillus goes under and you never see hide nor hair of your knife again. You get a new one and go on with your life.
At best, you get a new knife from the factory covered under warranty. Either way you have a replacement and no bad taste left lingering and no "what if's".


Personally, I'd go with option 1 then buy a Ranger RD9 or Becker BK9 (or 91 if you can find one).

HTH,
Rupe
 
Thanks for the advice everyone. I am going to contact Camillus and see what they have to say.

I really didn't mean to cause an uproar.
 
I've pretty much convinced that Peter La is right on with this knife and the use (not abuse) he put it through after reading all the posts here and seeing a photo of Mr. Becker himself batonning a BK.

Still seems a strange way to use a knife to me.
 
Codger_64 said:
If Camillus admits that this knife is made for such use, then I stand corrected....Codger
Click to expand...

I've yet to see anything from Camillus backing up the practive of batoning these knives as an acceptable practice covered by their warranty, but Ethan Becker evidently does promote this use as usual and well within the design parameters for this knife so....Have you e-mailed Ethan for his take on this? Perhaps he might be more responsive at this juncture than Camillus.

Here are examples of why I have my opinion about knife abuse:

With each of these, users tried to do things with them that they were not designed to do.

Likewise with these top four knives. Would you expect the manufacturer to warrant them?

But if Ethan, in his role as designer and spokesman for Camillus recommends the use of the CU7 in the manner described, and it broke, then
Codger_64 said:
....I stand corrected....Codger
Click to expand...
, and perhaps he will help you receive an adjustment. He should be able to walk your claim through for you, even with the chaos currently going on at Camillus.

Codger
 
From the Camillus/BK&T website:

"This knife will answer your needs and wants for most all your field craft chores. It will skin your deer, make your snares and traps, whittle a toothpick, slice an onion and with the help of a baton (big stick) split out small kindling for your fires."

I'm not sure why there's a need for two pages of debate as to whether or not using a baton is outrageous, for know-it-all youngsters, etc..
 
Codger_64 said:
....I stand corrected....Codger
Click to expand...

Perhaps I was not making myself clear.
I stand corrected.
I stand corrected
I stand corrected
:D

Proper knife use is always a matter of debate, particularly when a knife fails to perform as advertised. Wanna go for three pages?

Codger
 
I would never use an 897 for anything other than cutting and nothing can be so upsetting as to lend one to someone who thought he could use it for a screw driver! Schrade's are my favorite cutting tools and nothing else feels like a Sharpfinger when cutting or skinning and nothing feels like an 897 in the pocket! But Schrade's were not designed for abuse as are the thick spined Becker's. Although of all the Sharpfinger's in the deer fields how often do we baton one through the pelvic? How often do we hear and read of others doing so? how often do we hear my sharpfinger broke while splitting the pelvic? I agree there are better options for splitting the pelvic such as a good saw but every year the Sharpfinger does it with the use of a baton and unless you pry the bones it wont break.
 
Like a door, a deer pelvis is hinged. Remove the hinge pins and it falls apart. Allmaker made them to readily disassemble. And the job can be done with a tiny pen knife. Sawing and breaking bones is not needed. Again, a case of an unknowledgable knife user.

Yes, those 897s are what results from loaning a good knife to an inexperienced user. And the Safe-T-Grip knives... do you think someone tried to pry with them? Or threw them at trees? Or chipped them while hacking at hard bone? Yup. Both piles came from the closed factory, likely returned as "defective".

I still have my first Sharpfinger 152 (circa 1974), and my first Woodsman 165 (circa 1970), and neither are in poor condition, though they have been given heavy (though appropriate) use over the years. 1095HC and 440A steels are as good today as they ever were, and still have a place in the cutlery world. I've been through several of the 897UHs because of the reason stated above, loaning them to workers. I kicked that bad habit though.

Codger
 
[QUOTE=t1mpani]So I suppose your point here is that there is no difference in capabilities between the Becker knives and the cheap Chinese throwaways you mentioned, since you would expect the same results from them? That's how I read it, tell me if I'm incorrect.
.[/QUOTE]

No,there is a big difference between the Becker knife and the chinese knives.
However,if you are hammering a blade straight into the end-grain of a piece of wood,the steel blade receives impact in the compression direction.Even Chinese steel is very strong in compressive strength.
If you are prying sideways on it because of twisted grain or the wood is bigger than the length of the blade,that's different and it requires a bigger cross-section of the steel blade,better steel,or a smaller piece of wood.

Ever hear of a froe? Used to split shingles out of straight-grained,knot-free oak? Mine has a 12" blade,about a 5/16" thick,and is made out of plain carbon steel.One end has a socket where you drive in an 16-18" wooden handle.You use a home-made wood mallet to drive the blade as deep as you can and pry off the shingle.With straight grained oak,it splits easily.My point is that this froe (handed down from my Dad) has split shingles for many a roof and still is intact.Why? Probably because it's users,used it intelligently and selected their wood carefully.

God I can't wait until I'm an old guy. Life must be so much simpler when you can pretend you can't hear people who are raising questions you can't answer
Click to expand...

Yes,our remaining time is too short and valuable,to waste it arguing with today's kids who are better educated and more intelligent than we old gaffers
ever hoped to be.:D

Ron.
 
Codger64,

In your first picture, the broken fixed blades, what's the one second from the left with the sawback edge on it. It looks like it was a neat little knife before it got killed. Sorta looks like a Schrade to me.

Lagarto
 
lagarto said:
Codger64,

In your first picture, the broken fixed blades, what's the one second from the left with the sawback edge on it. It looks like it was a neat little knife before it got killed. Sorta looks like a Schrade to me.

Lagarto
Click to expand...
I believe this Schrade was called the elk hunter and the rocky mountain elk foundation logo is visible on the blade (i think)
 
Yes, the Schrade Jim Zumbo 1Elk. A portion of the proceeds went to the RMEF. 10 3/4" OA, 440C steel, $89.95 MSRP made just 1998-02. The TPR handle is the same as the X-Timer series. In fact, Taylor is now making them as a blackend knife and calling it an X-Timer.

Codger
 
Cool, thanks for the info, Codger et al. So Zumbo really exists. I've seen him goofed on a lot in Pat McManus articles, I thought he was a character McManus created.

Lagarto
 
I don't mean to stir up the fire again, although I'm an old geezer that wouldn't own a big knife I couldn't baton, but I am curious as to what the Camillus response was and also, Peter, if you could elaborate exactly how the tip was broken (prying, hitting the tip with the baton, etc.). I'm especially interested as I have just ordered a 7.

Doc
 
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