Should there be an ABS Certification Above "MS" ?

Should there be an ABS certification above "MS"?

  • I'm a Maker and I VOTE YES!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I'm a Maker and I VOTE NO!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I'm a Collector and I VOTE YES!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I'm a Collector and I VOTE NO!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .
Kevin Jones

Kevin Jones

Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
13,363
This concept has been tossed around a bit on two recent threads, so thought it may be interesting to put it to a vote.

Perhaps a "Grand Master" (for lack of a better term) would submit a sword, a folder, a dagger, a bowie and a knife of his choice all done with equal quality. That way you would recognize the Fisk, Hancock's, Deans, Dunns, the Larry Fuegen's (and others of course) for their work. Probably 5-10% of current masters would fall into this category.

IMO this would be beneficial to everyone; collectors, purveyors, JS smiths, current MS smiths, definitely the top MS smiths and the ABS as it would create more interest for the organization.

I don't see any downside.

What's your opinion?
 
NO. Absolutely not.


I used to think it was the best idea ever.

However!...

The cream will always rise to the top. If a Ms isn't up to snuff in your eyes, you won't buy knives from him.


I also think this would be a slap in the face to those Ms from yesteryear. Many of those guys cannot make work as clean as some of the younger guys today, but they didn't have the information network that is available today, or the tooling.

Ever seen any of Bill Moran's videos? Many smiths would be lost today trying to make knives with his equipment.

Even if a "Grand Master" rating did come along... do you think you would be surprised by those who would actually get one? I bet not.

Good conversational topic Kevin :)
 
As a collector, I voted no. I don't feel the need for a higher certification with exactly the same drawbacks as the MS one. I want something different that:
- is not for life,
- is restrictive by design (identifies the top X makers year after year rather than having no upward limit),
- is not based on the method of production,
- is decided by a combination of makers, collectors, and dealers,
- is independant from the ABS, which does quite well what its charter demands of it.

If you create a new "super MS" grade, you'll get exactly the same issue we have now, plus you're likely to kill the pipeline of new JS.
 
I agree with Nick, and I too have changed my mind on this. I used to like this idea, but now I think that it is not what we need. We all know that the MS are not all equal and that many old timers might not be up to the standards currently enforced. So what? If one day there are 5,000 ABS MS, that will mean that the art of the forged blade is so well represented that it has a self-sustaining critical mass. I'm all for it, even if in the process the term MS becomes completely meaningless.
 
grand master sounds to kkk. i think different degrees of mastersmith would work well. it is progress, certain makers keep getting better and better so you have to reward their hard work to elevate their craft by coming up with new ways to recognize them. i also think it is not fair to makers like fisk to keep them at the mastersmith level when he is making pieces many times better than some other mastersmiths. in todays abs Moran probably wouldnt even be a mastersmith. I am sorry but I have seen a few of his pieces and I was left very underwhelmed.
 
My vote is no.

However, I do believe that all MS should be held to the same standard, and that the amount of time a person has been a MS should not give that person tenure.

Yes, I have the knowledge necessary to properly ascertain if a Mastersmiths work is up to par, but there are many that do not have this ability. I would imagine that most new collectors would be of the opinion that the MS rating means that a certain level of work is being done by those makers. I know that's what I thought a few years ago. Over time I have learned better, but there are definitely those that think the way I did back then.
 
Joss said:
As a collector, I voted no. I don't feel the need for a higher certification with exactly the same drawbacks as the MS one. I want something different that:
- is not for life,
- is restrictive by design (identifies the top X makers year after year rather than having no upward limit),
- is not based on the method of production,
- is decided by a combination of makers, collectors, and dealers,
- is independant from the ABS, which does quite well what its charter demands of it.

If you create a new "super MS" grade, you'll get exactly the same issue we have now, plus you're likely to kill the pipeline of new JS.
Click to expand...

Great ideas Joss. But how the heck are we going to implement ALL that?
I don't agree with you on the JS matter, as I think you just raise the bar for everyone. Gives the makers JS or MS more to strive for.

NickWheeler said:
Another thought on this Kevin.

So who would judge the knives for this rating?
Click to expand...

Great question Nick.
I would like to see a panel of top tier makers, collectors, writers and purveyors. I've got an excellent panel in mind now (of which I'm most definitly not on):D
I hope we get opinions on this.
 
also I do not like this idea of submitting a grand master work for judging. I am sure any of these guys could make passing blades if they prepare well enough for it. instead it should be the knives the maker produces day in and day out that determines this upper level of mastersmithing.
 
severedthumbs said:
grand master sounds to kkk. i think different degrees of mastersmith would work well. it is progress, certain makers keep getting better and better so you have to reward their hard work to elevate their craft by coming up with new ways to recognize them. i also think it is not fair to makers like fisk to keep them at the mastersmith level when he is making pieces many times better than some other mastersmiths. in todays abs Moran probably wouldnt even be a mastersmith. I am sorry but I have seen a few of his pieces and I was left very underwhelmed.
Click to expand...


Good point as to the broad spectrum of talent. There's a few MS that have quite a way to go be considered top tier IMO.
My point is, there may be too broad a range in the MS ranks. Heck, there's JS IMO that are in the top 25% of the MS.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I don't agree with you on the JS matter, as I think you just raise the bar for everyone. Gives the makers JS or MS more to strive for.
Click to expand...


Right now, a newcoming smith knows that they need to pay their dues for a few years, and submit for a JS, and then an MS. Can you imagine how much of a disincentive it would be to add one more step?
 
Joss said:
Right now, a newcoming smith knows that they need to pay their dues for a few years, and submit for a JS, and then an MS. Can you imagine how much of a disincentive it would be to add one more step?
Click to expand...

Would just motivate me more.
Great question, Makers? JS?
 
I vote no...... It would be no different than the MS group of makers is now. All of the same issues would be mentioned by the Collectors and Purveyors, it would just center around a smaller number of makers.

On the issue of re-testing/re-certifying for ratings.....No to that as well. After going through the whole process of JS and MS....I sure would not wish to go through it again. Before writing this response my mind went to those who hold a Master's degree in the educational sense. Would those individuals who have such degrees think it fair that in order to maintain that degree, they be required to periodically go through all the necessary steps they did to achieve the initial degree? I doubt many would want to go through the time and effort required to write another thesis, and most would likely think....."This isn't right! I've already completed these requirements.!"

The educational world, has what I refer to as it's "Educated idiots". I have met, and known a great number of people who hold advanced educational degrees that frankly could not pour water out of a glass if the directions were written on the bottom.
Just because there are some letters after a person's name, it doesn't make them any better, or smarter than anyone else, it only means that they took the time, and expended the effort to fulfill the requirements. All the rest comes from within, just as it does with Knifemakers.

There may be those in the Knifemaking world who, once a level is achieved, may "rest easy" once they achieve it, but it should be obvious to the buyer, and that/those individuals will quickly either catch up, or fall out. My own personal opinion is that AFTER achieving the MS rating is when the hard work started. Everything has to be better than the last one, and if you sit back and try to ride on the rating, you'd soon find that your going nowhere.

Custom knives are better than they have every been. Durability is better, fit and finish are better, and designs are better than they have ever been. If you doubt that, find an early 80s copy of the Knives Annual, or Blade Magazine, and compared it to an issue from 2006-2007. It's very obvious.

Sorry for ranting so much....didn't mean to write a book !
 
I wish there were more books, periodicals etc. dealing with customs and only customs. Perhaps this way makers could display more work to the public and have those new publications to look forward to. There are very few places that makers can show off their newest work.. I wish there was more that was just dedicated to this as a high quality art.
 
Great analogy Ed! I had something like that in my original post but deleted it because I couldn't articulate myself as well as you did.

Everytime I hear this come up I think of this architect I met when I was 18 and just heading into Engineering study. He had earned his degree 45 years prior to me meeting him. He had never even heard of things such as Autocad while in college (it hadn't been invented yet! ;) )

However, he was extremely passionate and driven in his field. Not only did he work his way to the top of his field, he worked to stay there.

By the time I met him, he was doing things like giving lecture at UW on ways to integrate computer aided drafting in his field.

He got his degree and continued to progress and grow. That was all due to his personal drive and commitment to his chosen field.

I think it's the same with knifemakers. There may be a few that made it through the ranks and then just kind of hovered there. But the ones that you seek, and talk about so often, are the ones that have a passion and commitment to rise to the top.

It wouldn't matter if you allowed them the initials GMs after their name, or took the Ms away.... They would continue to do the very best work that they can - Today, Tomorrow, and for as long as their bodies allow.

And besides, do the rankings really influence you as a BUYER? Don't get me wrong, I have wanted to be a Mastersmith since I was about 15... It's still rediculously important to me as a part of my path in this craft. I think it must be one of the most rewarding experiences ever to earn that stamp.

But as far as YOU BUYING knives. Don't you really just look for what you like? Would "GMs" make you suddenly scrounge and save for THAT maker just because of the earned ranking?
 
This dicussion seems to be about standards and consistency.

I think there should be a level above MS. I understand that in Japan, there are annual contests for Japanese swords. Smiths and other craftsmen such as scabbard makers submit their pieces to a judging panel and are graded in order. Those that win often enough are judged to be above contest level.

I think this is a system that would appeal to makers as they can gain higher places with increased knowledge, skill and effort and it rewards consistency, increased knowledge and commitment from year to year. Buyers can see who is doing well consistantly and buy accordingly. Unlike a qualification for life, the buyer knows from year to year who is good at the time.

Its a voluntary scheme so makers are free to submit pieces or not.
 
Maybe we could get Grand Master Flash to be the first judge since he is already a grand master.
 
I would have to say NO.:)


I think it would water down the whole point of the rating system and add credence to those who say ratings dont mean anything. I like the fact that there is so much lattitude within each step of the rating. For instance some JS makers are content to stay a JS, but develope their style within that level. Others want to go to the MS and then find their niche, such a Dan Winkler. I dont buy the idea that the ABS cramps a makers creativity.

The bar is raised by the individual makers. After that, the buyer decides.

Lin
 
There needs to be opportunities for advancement within the organization to form a natural hierarchy. A way to separate the men from the boys. Perhaps a thesis or degree program. A maker could choose his own thesis and present his proposal to a committee for approval. After the said work is accomplished the review committee would either pass or fail the smith. The person with the highest degree or number of degrees would be the Grandmaster.

I think it needs to come down to something like that,… or just forget the whole testing and ranking system altogether.

Leave it the way it is,… and the A.B.S. is headed for absolute obscurity.
 
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