Should there be an ABS Certification Above "MS" ?

[Tai Goo]

In addition to my last statement, each M.S. should be allowed to form their own review committee, of say 3-6 voluntary members, from the existing group of mastersmiths.

 

[DWinkler]

This is a very interesting topic. I have been in discussions over the past several years that deal with both a higher rating than Master Smith and renewal of both Master and Journeyman ratings. Both have their good and bad points.

What it comes down to for me is: The Knife public actually does the best rating. Buyers and peers take into consideration the quality of work, knife design, originality, knife performance, price, business practice and personality. They also recognize if a maker is getting better or falling behind. A maker that does his job right will rise while a maker that falls behind in to many categories will have trouble.

The ABS has a good rating system. It's not perfect but it mostly works. Judges have standards and opinions about what is acceptable or not. I may see things differently but I don't have any ideas to make it better. A few Bladesmiths have done excellent work to submit to the judges then relaxed their quality after receiving their rating. Some Bladesmiths have steadily improved and others have stagnated. If the people who are willing to step and take a leadership role decide to make a change I'll step up to the challenge. I'll either make it or not but I guarantee this one thing wont either make or break me as a Bladesmith.

Climbing the ladder in the ABS or any other organization is part of overall success. A lot of other factors also come into play. This topic is important and I hope the ABS Board of Directors is paying attention.

Daniel

 

[Kevin Jones]

I would have to say NO.


I think it would water down the whole point of the rating system and add credence to those who say ratings dont mean anything. I like the fact that there is so much lattitude within each step of the rating. For instance some JS makers are content to stay a JS, but develope their style within that level. Others want to go to the MS and then find their niche, such a Dan Winkler. I dont buy the idea that the ABS cramps a makers creativity.

The bar is raised by the individual makers. After that, the buyer decides.

Lin

Good points Lin.
I'm not inferring that the ABS grading systems is broken at all, just that the higher rating may offer some more opportunities, and increase interest in ABS.
And true, the knife buying public ultimately does the rating.

Don't see it having an affect on JS makers who wanted to stay at that level or makers wanting to developed an alternative style or niche. IMO however, Dan Winkler would with no doubt be in this top tier.

 

[BrB]

As a purveyor I must say no. As stated above the problem lies in consistency. And this only the market can adress.. and the key to that is education. I saw a thread the other day about a collectors association. That is a great idea IMO. This would be the perfect organization to spread the knowledge the new collectors need to pick their buys, and JS, MS or whatever would have to catch up the market demands.

The japanese system however sounds very intersting. Award a maker for the whole of his work focused in consistency would be very good for the market. Maybe some sort of prize, given by the collectors organizaton, to those who realy deserve it.

In order for this to work this organization must be VERY STRONG.
it's up to you guys.

Jjust my 5 cents.


Jeff Velasco

 

[ptgdvc]

I voted no.

I think that a MS should be allowed (if they so choose) to submit a new set of test knives every five or ten years for judgement. The names of the makers who decide to test should be completely private and only the passing names should be announced. This would provide a way to recognize long term excellence. Of course the marketplace on the primary and secondary levels will always provide it own rewards to the makers.

 

[Phillip Patton]

I voted no. In fact, I'd like to question the value of having any certifications at all. Exactly what good does it do? It lets the public know that the maker has made a knife capable of cutting a piece of 1" hemp rope, and chopping through a 2x4 twice. Whoopty-do. Those are very basic MINIMUM requirements, and there's no guarantee that the maker will progress past that. Wasn't there someone who made a blade that passed the test, and the blade hadn't even been heat treated?
I'm thinking seriously about letting my ABS membership expire, and not going for my JS. I don't like the idea of my work being viewed by others in the light of one organizations standards, especially if I don't agree with those standards. I have my own standards (higher than the ABS') and I would rather have my work speak for itself.

 

[jdm61]

I agree with Ed Caffrey. The market AND the makers have raised the bar VERY high. Some of the knives that I have made recently would have sold very quickly in 1982, but even by the time that I attended my first Guild show in the early 90's, maybe not. Today? Fagidaboudit!!! lol. I could still sell at local gun shows and maybe the Gator Club show right now, but as far a major shows? I would die of humilitation....

 

[butcher_block]

IIt lets the public know that the maker has made a knife capable of cutting a piece of 1" hemp rope, and chopping through a 2x4 twice.

i can make knives like tht but no stamp for me as i never had to hit the steel with a hammer to make that knife (thats my gripe)

 

[jdm61]

I voted no. In fact, I'd like to question the value of having any certifications at all. Exactly what good does it do? It lets the public know that the maker has made a knife capable of cutting a piece of 1" hemp rope, and chopping through a 2x4 twice. Whoopty-do. Those are very basic MINIMUM requirements, and there's no guarantee that the maker will progress past that. Wasn't there someone who made a blade that passed the test, and the blade hadn't even been heat treated?
I'm thinking seriously about letting my ABS membership expire, and not going for my JS. I don't like the idea of my work being viewed by others in the light of one organizations standards, especially if I don't agree with those standards. I have my own standards (higher than the ABS') and I would rather have my work speak for itself.

Not taking the JS test and letting your membership expire are two completely different things. Even if you don't feel like taking the test, on should not throw out the baby with the bathwater, whihc a number of folks have done in the past. Regardless of what you think about the testing, current board policies, politics, etc, I belive that many of us would not be where we are today if not for the ABS. I'm not saying that the organization has "made" us, but in my case, it was the single biggest influence not only in determining how I would make knives, but that I would make them at all. I had been around the knife game back in the early 90's as a neophyte collector, but I was out for a long time. It was my reintroduction to the ABS through this forum and others and at the Blade show in 2005 that really got me going in the hobby. The fall Piney Woods Hammer In where I met Bill Moran and Jerry Fisk, among others, sealed the deal. Chances are good that I will never test for MS, even if I ever aquire the necessary skills because the dagger scares me...lol. BUT, I paid up 5 years of dues in advance last year and I will do that again at renewal time in 2011. And it has been worth every penny and then some.
Now if you REALLY need that $25 for an extra case of beer or HALF of a tank of gas every year, then I can't fault you

 

[STR]

I note that there are different levels of 'black belt' so why not for the art of blade making? A masters master so to speak. They certainly exist.

One good point is mentioned though that everyone has a learning curve and a peak and then gets to a point they don't quite do the same level of work they used to, so with an advance wouldn't it be rather a negative if not a demotion when that rank was stripped if the level of work dropped?

Still its not up to anyone but the ABS and it looks like they don't feel the need.

STR

 

[Phillip Patton]

Not taking the JS test and letting your membership expire are two completely different things. Even if you don't feel like taking the test, on should not throw out the baby with the bathwater, whihc a number of folks have done in the past. Regardless of what you think about the testing, current board policies, politics, etc, I belive that many of us would not be where we are today if not for the ABS. I'm not saying that the organization has "made" us, but in my case, it was the single biggest influence not only in determining how I would make knives, but that I would make them at all. I had been around the knife game back in the early 90's as a neophyte collector, but I was out for a long time. It was my reintroduction to the ABS through this forum and others and at the Blade show in 2005 that really got me going in the hobby. The fall Piney Woods Hammer In where I met Bill Moran and Jerry Fisk, among others, sealed the deal. Chances are good that I will never test for MS, even if I ever aquire the necessary skills because the dagger scares me...lol. BUT, I paid up 5 years of dues in advance last year and I will do that again at renewal time in 2011. And it has been worth every penny and then some.
Now if you REALLY need that $25 for an extra case of beer or HALF of a tank of gas every year, then I can't fault you

It's not that I don't feel like taking the test, I just don't see how it would accomplish anything.
If you've benefited from the ABS, wonderful. :thumbup: I'm sure many people have, but I can't think of any way I have, directly. Bladeforums has done MUCH more to help me, both in learning the craft, and getting my name out there.
A number of ABS smiths have been very helpful to me, but the ABS itself, not really. I suppose they've accomplished some in the area of validating the hand made knife, and that's certainly a good thing.

 

[Bruce Bump]

I voted no. In fact, I'd like to question the value of having any certifications at all. Exactly what good does it do? It lets the public know that the maker has made a knife capable of cutting a piece of 1" hemp rope, and chopping through a 2x4 twice. Whoopty-do. Those are very basic MINIMUM requirements, and there's no guarantee that the maker will progress past that. Wasn't there someone who made a blade that passed the test, and the blade hadn't even been heat treated?
I'm thinking seriously about letting my ABS membership expire, and not going for my JS. I don't like the idea of my work being viewed by others in the light of one organizations standards, especially if I don't agree with those standards. I have my own standards (higher than the ABS') and I would rather have my work speak for itself.

The ABS has done nothing but good for me. The certifications show that I have lived up to somebodys expectations other than my own. The ABS is huge and has some of the best makers in the world. The cut and bend test is the easy part, the judging is where its at. BTW the mild steel blade you are referring to only passed the rope cut.
Its about personal achievements for me and the benefits are that experts approve of my accomplishments and my growing customer base is pleased also.
You can stay in the ABS and still let your work speak for itself. That is what they are for. Its a good business move to be a part of an estabished organization. Bad mouthing them will not sell knives for you.

 

[Phillip Patton]

The ABS has done nothing but good for me. The certifications show that I have lived up to somebodys expectations other than my own. The ABS is huge and has some of the best makers in the world. The cut and bend test is the easy part, the judging is where its at. BTW the mild steel blade you are referring to only passed the rope cut.
Its about personal achievements for me and the benefits are that experts approve of my accomplishments and my growing customer base is pleased also.
You can stay in the ABS and still let your work speak for itself. That is what they are for. Its a good business move to be a part of an estabished organization. Bad mouthing them will not sell knives for you.

I'm not bad mouthing them. I'm just questioning the value of the certifications.

I don't think less of those who feel the need to be a part of an organization, but that doesn't mean I have to take the same path.

I'm confident I can pass the performance test, and the judging. Doesn't mean I have to. Since my standards are quite high, I don't feel the need conform to others standards.

Also, the current standards have been around for quite awhile. Maybe it's time for some revising.

 

[Wulf]

I'm confident I can pass the performance test, and the judging.

If that's the case, then what's your downside? Whether or not you choose to put a stamp on your blades, being awarded one certainly can't hurt.

 

[NickWheeler]

I gotta say I'm completely on the opposite side of this from you Phillip.

First off, the Js test and Ms test are MUCH more about the 5 knives you have to take into those testing rooms in Atlanta and submit before the judges.

I have had people tell me for about 4 years now it would be a walk in the park for me. Now come time to actually step up to the plate, and you would not believe how freaked out I am about it. It's a lot easier to say you can do the work and just assume you can, than to actually go through the process.

And saying that ABS smiths have helped you, but not the ABS directly. To me that's like saying some guys that work for UPS helped you out with some packages, but you can't really figure how UPS itself helped you.

The ABS is the vehicle, it's all those smiths (like the ones that you said have helped you) that are driving it.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about it... I suppose I'm just perplexed to find out in the last week or so, how many people think the ABS isn't doing enough for them. I think when you consider what those 4 fellas started out to do, it has been a wild success.

 

[Phillip Patton]

If that's the case, then what's your downside? Whether or not you choose to put a stamp on your blades, being awarded one certainly can't hurt.

My thoughts on that aren't fully developed yet, (and they may be totally disconnected anyway ). But one downside I see is that I disagree with the heat treating methods that the performance tests imply. As I said earlier, the tests aren't supposed to dictate how anyone builds their knives, but the ABS doesn't make that clear enough, thus, the public assumes that a knife that bends is best. I don't think so, and I worry that others will think I do, if I submit to the standards. That's my basic problem. If the tests and standards were reformed, I'd be more excited about getting my JS.

 

[Phillip Patton]

I gotta say I'm completely on the opposite side of this from you Phillip.

That's fine. If we all agreed about everything, this world would be pretty boring.

First off, the Js test and Ms test are MUCH more about the 5 knives you have to take into those testing rooms in Atlanta and submit before the judges.

I agree completely.

I have had people tell me for about 4 years now it would be a walk in the park for me. Now come time to actually step up to the plate, and you would not believe how freaked out I am about it. It's a lot easier to say you can do the work and just assume you can, than to actually go through the process.

I'd be shocked if you didn't make it. But how did you get to this point? Was it the ABS, or your own blood, sweat, and tears?
There's lot's of successful makers who aren't a part of any organization

And saying that ABS smiths have helped you, but not the ABS directly. To me that's like saying some guys that work for UPS helped you out with some packages, but you can't really figure how UPS itself helped you.

You make a good point. As I said in my last post, I haven't thought this through completely, and my thoughts may not make sense.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about it... I suppose I'm just perplexed to find out in the last week or so, how many people think the ABS isn't doing enough for them. I think when you consider what those 4 fellas started out to do, it has been a wild success.

That's ok, I have thick skin.
And you're right, the ABS has done a lot to promote the forged blade. I'm not saying the ABS is useless, just that there's room for improvement. Just like any group or organization.

 

[NickWheeler]

BTW Phillip, I didn't mean to imply AT ALL that you could not pass the Js exam. Your knives look great and seem to be getting more clean and crisp every time you post. I was just making a general statement about the big difference between theory and application.

I used to completely agree with your sentiments on the performance knife. But I now realize that it really isn't to try and prove that all or any of your knives will do the 90 bend, but that you have the control over the steel needed to make that one particular knife bend.

I personally don't really heat-treat any of my "daily" knives the way I did my performance knife. I focus much more on overall cutting than the bending aspect.

I probably shouldn't be posting when I haven't slept in three days!

 

[canineforge]

I probably shouldn't be posting when I haven't slept in three days!

And won't sleep for three more days! That is what is good about a testing process...it pushes the maker. You'll do fine, Nick, and sleep better!! :thumbup:

I feel the upper tier is more easily decided nowdays on forums like these and in our super-information age, no testing needed. Everyone knows what everyone is doing to some extent, and the type of work being produced. The cream rises to the top. I would have to vote no for a higher level for MS's.


- Joe

 

[ryan9977]

i personally have mixed feelings about this topic.....keep in mind i am more of a regular joe that has alot of knives and loves knifemaking......my thoughts are this:....is a smith that does alot of engraving on a guard with a high tech mosaic damascus blade better.....in my opinion....maybe not......is a maker that uses no electricity ....just a hammer and his strength better....maybe not......i for one just hope that knifemaking takes a turn back to the days of the bill moran's.....people need to pick up a hammer in their hand and start sweating.......i watch alot of tenis and one of the commentators always used to talk about switching back to wooden racquets.....to take the technology out of it.....anybody that has ever swung a wooden racquet will know what i mean.......yeah i think jerry fisk , ed caffrey , steve dunn, and many others make tremendous knives and i have had the pleasure of holding some in my hands.......what do you guys think about people taking the js and ms test with limited equipment and tools.....just the basic requirment.......i would be much more impressed with a highly finished knife that was made by hand......with this post i am not trying to take anything away from makers using technology to aid them......you gotta pay the bills and make knives everyday......i am just throwing it out there to see what you more experienced collectors and makers think......ryan