Should women carry knives?

Only if they want to! (quick answer)

TallwingedGoat,

Sorry you got slammed for your trouble.
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I don't think our best logic will solve this one. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try though. When you do fail, just try a little humor. It helps a little.

Part of the problem is the group interaction. You were the victim of group thinking, not individual thinking here. One on one is usually a better situation to offer advice.

I think you did the right thing, but came out wrong anyway - go figure!
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Yes, women should carry a knife. Utility uses are unlimited. Before anyone decides to use a knife for defensive purposes the proper training and mindset are essential.
 
I feel that it is a parent's responsibility to prepare their children for the challenges of the world.

All of my elder children have either a main battle rifle or an assault rifle. As well as the handgun of their choice. As well as the knives of their choice. I started training them in firearms handling when they were about 5 or 6 I don't remember exactly. My 7 yo has been handling knives for about 2 years, and is progressing to safe firearms handling and disassembly.

When I was back in Omaha last month, I bought my eldest daughter a Colt H-Bar Sporter. Her husband is a NRA firearms instructor, and has an AK-47 and several handguns. A custom 1911 is in the works for her.

When Ann strapped on the Talonite Cetan that Rob Simonich made up for her (fossil mammoth ivory scales; a truly beautiful knife) on her right hip, and hoisted her daughter up on her left hip, I got this warm fuzzy feeling inside. Two generations of progeny well protected.

As for the idea that a woman should not be
armed, as it is likely that the weapon will be taken from her and turned on her, this is truly a crock of s**t. I pity the person who tries to take Ann's (who is 5'10", and a buffed 145 lbs.) knives from her (folders and a Mad Dog ATAK). As Neal Stephenson pointed out in 'Snow Crash,' the person holding the handle of the sword is usually the one who wins.

I will discuss the appropriateness of firearms for petite females with my younger daughter the next time I see her; she is only 5'2." Somehow, I don't think she will be inclined to give up her customized Ruger SP-101 .357. Especially since SHE was the one who requested I give it to her in the first place. Likewise her knives. Further, I doubt that her husband, an ex-Green Beret, would see any merit in the argument that the danger of her weapons being taken from her outweigh the benefit of her having them. Otherwise I am certain he would have expressed this view by now.

Certainly none of the above should be interperted as forcing someone who is reluctant to be armed to carry arms. This is truly foolish.

But I pity the schmuck who attacks any of my kids. Walt Welch
 
I don't believe there are any real STATISTICS on women having their defensive weapons used against them. I don't think there have been good studies or good data collected to support a statistical conclusion. There are anecdotal stories of it happening and anti-weapon types elevate these to scientific statistical evidence. On the other hand a knife fight is too close to an even physical contest for women to use a knife as a preferred mode of defense.

Back in the late 60's when the flower children were saying "peace, love, dope" I spent a few days at a farm owned by an overly-indulged hippie girl. Three hippie girls living alone were collecting prowlers. One of the young women came to the conclusion that she wanted to be able to protect herself should the jerks stop just peeking in the windows. Waving knives around was the furthest thing from my mind.

The problem with knives is that if you are physically assaulted it is likely to be by a person who is personally combative (seems obvious). It is likely to be someone who is big, fast, mean, drunk, crazy or all the above. (I liked knives cause I was fast and crazy). Since combative men are likely to have more of those characteristics than the women they choose to assault, the last thing you want is to get within knife range and have a physical contest. Bless good old Samuel Colt.

Since the optimal answer is a projectile weapon the question is what type. There are big hurdles to actually shooting someone in the case of many of these assaults. In the first place if you pull a gun when confronted by someone who isn't threatening you with a gun there is a big problem to convince yourself that you are justified in shooting. This slows you down and makes your threats to use the gun less convincing. Secondly, women are often assaulted by people that they know and are friendly with. It's real hard to convince yourself or the guy that you're willing to pull the trigger.

For these reasons I favor a pump-action shotgun. The proper application is to rack a cartridge into the chamber and immediately fire a load of bird shot right over the guys head, rack in another round and aim at his crotch. Thats what I trained my flower child trainee to do. We borrowed her grandpa's old 16 gage and I taught her how to rapid fire it from the hip. To minimise any hesitance to fire in the house I told her to blast out the nearest window at the slightest hint of trouble. Easy to fix and sure to impress anyone inside or outside the house.

For carrying around, a revolver with the first couple rounds full of birdshot is handy. It helps you get over that hurdle of either doing nothing or using deadly force. When things get hot, first a round of shot over the head, then a round of shot to the knee cap if necessary (the warning shot is optional). If there is the slightese hint of further agression put a slug in the kneecap followed by two or three to the chest (depending on whether you have a 5 or 6 shot revolver).

If you cannot carry or get a gun the combination of a long knife and pepper spray is useful. Go for high volume and long range on the pepper spray, not smallest size. If you use a knife you need to have an element of surprise if you aren't really quick and athletic. Most assaultive guys will try and club, jump or kick you if they see you have a knife. You need to stop them from swinging on you with a club. You're probably better off screaming for help while holding a concealed blade. You need a lot of practise and determination to make that first cut. Pick a target that you are willing to cut and be determined to do it. A 12" long slash from hip bone down to above the knee will probably stop a guy from running after you and give you a huge speed advantage. You don't have to screw up the nerve to open his belly or kill him and you have definitely shown that you will cut him if he continues. The closer you come to his crotch in the process the better.

As a final note, everyone should carry a knife. It is the minimum tool which we creatures with brains and opposable thumbs should always have at our disposal. However our best defense is having the brains to stay away from drunks, bullies, dark streets, and other opportunities to be assaulted.


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"Defense against knife attack:
Option 1. If you have a gun shoot him."
 
tallwingedgoat,

Well, for starters, allow me to add my voice to those that already said, "sorry you got slammed!"

So, that having been said, what possibly possessed you to inject the topic of knife defence in a woman's discussion group out here in (PC) California in the first place? What were you thinking? No, really, what were you thinking?

(just kidding)

I, for what its worth, did something very similar on a CA North Bay area CSU campus, albeit my advice was not per se gender specific, and boy did I get blasted by my fellow female coursemates!
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One Female classmate in particular, former US Army MP, took it upon herself to try and "deck me" (actually took a swing at me) for being anything BUT a pacifist. (go figure)

David Rock,

Where, pray tell, did you come up with Rule # 7?

Are you, by chance, implying that we should check out KFCs more often (given that they might actually be underground "lover's lanes)?

If so, I'll take up fast food (yuck)!
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Take care & stay sharp,

Michael Cedric Swiney

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"You learn something new every day!"

 


I love DavidRocks philosophy simply becasue I have used the same resaoning to defend removal of the gun bans. It's not a perfect worls, and regardless of what you do, you could get hurt. [Al Pacino, HEAT "You could get killed walkin' your doggy!!"]

The statistics are never a reason to do anything. Who says the statistics they quote are the correct ones. (here comes the hyprocacy) Most statistics are biased to what the gatherer wants to prove. Never use them as a basis to make a decision until you have verified them yourself.

I also agree with the attitudes that no untrained person should cary a weapon he OR she feesl uncomfortable using. The image of a pissed off woman slashing madly would deter me more than the best trained knife fighter in a ready stance. I've cut myself countless times on things like a brand new Cold Steel Recon Tanto, and still remember that feeling of my finger sliding the length of the blade. I couldn't imagine being sliced at with no avail for what get's cut.

Of course (to interject a light hearted comment) let's ask John Wayne Bobbit if women should cary knives.........
 
In response to the original question: only as long as they don't borrow mine.
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The response you got from your women friends is the classic case of women not taking responsibility for defending themselves. Shame on them.

There have been very thorough studies done on the outcomes of violent crimes against women, and they seem to point to the fact that statisically, it is the women who resist the best that get hurt the least.

One woman in every three gets raped in their life time, or something like that. And still, most of them refuse to learn to defend themselves, even to stay modestly capable in the most basic self-defense, running.

Same thing can be said for the majority of males though.

Harv
 
I think 'woman' or not isn't the determining factor, but rather if someone (man or woman) has the training and where-with-all to act rationally in dangerous situations.

I couldn't give my wife a folder, she's way too accident prone. Although, without proper training, I too would probably be foolish to utilize a knife for defense since I'm untrained.

I read electric meters in the worst areas of Miami for 2 years and only had one incident. It is mostly how you carry yourself and your awareness of the surroundings.

BTW: Ironically that "one incident" was being robbed at knife point by a transvestite. In retrospect (20/20 hindsight), I should have used my pepper spray that we carried for dogs and lit that flamer up!!! Fortunately I did nothing and nothing happened to me.

These types of situations happen instantaneously and is real easy to not react properly. Unfortunately at the time I was complacent and hadn't even considered or mentally prepared myself in advance for that type of situation. Obviously after this incident, I did dwell on my lack of defensive reaction and still do not know what the best reaction would be.

If I did give 'it' a face full of pepper spray and kick a$$, would I be any better off? I'm sure I would have felt better, but also put myself in unneccessary danger of getting sliced up by a blade with who knows what diseases on it.
 
It sounds like the women in that discussion group were permanent victims.

Should women use knives as a defensive weapon? Assuming that a women or a man is willing to get the proper training to use the defensive tool of their choice, yes!

Going a little beyond the original question, it is best to avoid a situation where you need to defend yourself. Gotta know where you are at all times. If you do that, odds are you won't have to use what you carry to defend yourself.
 
My wife is an officer in the Reno,Nevada police department, and with 13 years of martial arts, and always carries a knife as a backup, I would not want to challenge her, BUT, she is not the average female, so I agree on an average, the person has to know how to use it at the time, and situation.She even says that at times the knife is better, at times the gun, and at times, pepper spray or asp(baton). And like one person said, always being ware of the surroundings.
As I always tell everybody, she is my bodyguard.he he
But really, when she is around, I always feel safer, expecially around here where there is so much gang violence.
My .02 cents.

Larry
 
This is going to sound sick.....but I simply don't have the time to post such long posts as those above.

What is the ulitmate blade for defence? He he, how about a 30" sword? With a little practice)
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), any woman could learn to lop off arms and legs in the blink of an eye.

I stabbeth thee!!!!!
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I kill myself
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.

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"All of our knives open with one hand, in case you're busy with the other"
<OVAL OFFICE JOKE>

[This message has been edited by Stompy (edited 29 July 1999).]
 
I have no doubt that the statistics gathered illustrated that women indeed get disarmed and have their weapons used against them more than men. I don't even think these were "intentional" statistics. It makes perfect sense to me actualy now that I think about it. Few men can fight their way out of a wet paper bag, women pay even less mind to personal defense. If you don't know how to use a weapon, it's more likely that you'll be disarmed.

This buisness about women having less upper body strength than men is also a halftruth. Women, just like men, come in different shapes and sizes. Some will be bigger than others. I refer you to my previously mentioned former girlfriend who stood just over six feet and weighed a good 40 pounds more than I. Women can lift weights just like men can. If you don't want to, that's on you.

Sure, typicaly men are potentialy larger, but very few people really push these theoretical limits. Women can easily get as strong as most men.

I am a man, a small one. 5'7" and 140lbs. I am also a former streetfighter. I was, and am, significantly smaller and weaker than many of those I fought or who may assault me. I'm also a tough son of a bitch that has put down a number of cocky bohemoths who bit off more than they can chew.

Most women can easily achieve my level of strength and ability. I am quite able to fend for myself. I am not a "1%-er". Just a regular kinda guy.

What a lot of gun advocates don't realize is that the vast majority of assaults are belly-to-belly. At this range there is no real advantage to a firearm, unless you are crippled in such a way as to not be able to use a knife. A shotgun makes a lot of sense for home defense though, since you might actualy be able to get the drop on some intruder while clearing your home.

I have seen knives used against people, I have had them used on me, and I have used them on others. I can vouch for their efficacy as a weapon within their operational parameters. I can also vouch for the fact that they are perfectly practical. Some more than others, but the concept of edged weapons is perfectly workable.

I'd take a blade over any truncheon short of a baseball bat. Go ahead and give me some bruise damage. I'll slice your tendons and open your throat. I'll limp away and my bruises will heal. You'll be zipped up in a bag, stuck in a box, and spend eternity pushing up daisys. Falshlights and short sticks are no match for sharpened steel and the skill to use it. This is not theory. I have seen this go down. More than once.

I heartily reccomend learning to wield any sort of weapon as well as attaining a level of proficiency in unarmed combat.

By the way, maybe those middle class and upper crust chicks have an aversion to weapons, but here on the poor side of down, they don't really have any such hang ups. I think it was DannyC who comes from a rougher background as well as has atested to the fact that she was armed and capable, of course, I don't want to speak for her.

Anyway, most of the ladies I know are competent brawlers. In the sense that they can go toe-to-toe with a man and hand him his ass.

It all depends on what sort of person you are and what you're willing to do. You will find that the closer you are to the uglier side of life, the less bullcrap you will encounter. No room for it.

 
Snick you said it all. i dont know what their problem is with weapons. if they dont want to use learn or carry them then fine. but when the shi+ hits the fan and they curl up into a fetal ball and scream dont hurt me i will be kicking, punching, ripping, tearing, biting, swinging a stick or looping off limbs or shooting my way out of it(after i get a CCW).

if they are so afrais of defending themselves caus they may get hurt then dont bit-- when you do get hurt cause you did not defend yourself.

By the way, the only good use for such people in a fight is to throw in the attackers way. and then run. thats puting liberals to good use.
 
There is no gender issue regarding the carrying of a weapon. Anyone who feels that they sometimes come into physical danger should prepare themselves for that contingency in whatever fashion they see fit. Self-defense training should precede weapons carry, but this is true regardless of gender.
 
This week the FBI arrested the Yosemite serial killer. He decapitated a young woman who was a ranger-naturalist in the park. She was apparenty unarmed when he ambushed her. He was bigger and stronger and had a knife. He was caught because she put up a ferocious fight before he finally succeded in killing her, and so created a bunch of evidence that led to his capture. She is credited with saving some unknown number of lives, since he would probably have kept on killing until he was caught. Maybe, just maybe, if she had had something besides her bare hands she could have saved her own too.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
And we can probably add Nicole Simpson to the list of in shape, had access to any sort of training and tools she wanted and still was killed with a knife in her courtyard.

TWG, what the hell is "Authoritative Subtext?" Is it the notion that no one is to be in a position of superior knowledge (an authority on the subject) or no one can make the rules or WTF? Someone will always make the rules, eh? Soemone is to know more than others, or have we really duymbed down the university setting so badly that you next group of grads are getting ripped for everything you hope you can pay back to learn not to interject knowledge where it may be desperately needed and worse, this sort of PC rape-victim-in-a-can can seriously believe that she can do or say or be whereever and whatever she likes without the possibility of repercussion?

I was the unofficial couselor for half the people I knew in college, I have heard stories that I would have believed could only come from concentration camps concerning violence against women, but I never ceased to be amazed even at my most liberal (pro choice, free economy, pro death penalty, try to love your fellow man) I was astounded by the lack of respec these women gave themselves after being brutalized like beasts, failing to report, failing to take proactive steps, failing to even take reactive steps other than to march around campus yelling idiotic slogans. Now in my ever increasingly conservative return, I sill am of the above, with the addition of a serious eye for eye quotient. I am the authority in the situation and should any assailant try to prove different, let the games begin.

AJ, anyone, the box... please anyone else...
 
Esteemed poster Jeff Clark: your recounting of the arming and training of a flowerchild is amusing and entertaining.

But does not follow current thinking on self defense training. In fact, training since the early 1960's has been markedly different.

Shooting a shotgun out a window with no target is a very difficult thing for me to understand. It is dangerous, as it violates a cardinal rule of gun handling: identify your target.

Racking a slide shotgun and firing one shot over another person's head is also not in keeping with proper self defense behavior. You never waste a shot in a self defense situation: it might be the one you really need. If you have to display and prepare a weapon, the next thing to do is shoot the person who is threatening or attacking you. The best place to aim is about half way between the nipples. Certainly, if preparing the shotgun results in the guy turning around and running away, you don't need to shoot him, but you must be prepared to; you cannot count on him being frightened.

Loading a revolver with shot shells first is incredible folly. You have to be willing and able to kill an attacker from the first shot; otherwise, you will not win. You will die.

You must have thought through the situations in which you would use lethal force long before you are faced with using it; there is NO TIME to think when you are threatened.

You have to be able to take a human life from the outset. You cannot decide this after firing two non lethal rounds.

Here is what was taught in the Special Forces in the early 1960's, and is still widely taught today:
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If you think that you should kill a person, then do so immediately, without hesitation. Waiting a millisecond will result in the other person having the advantage, and probably cost you your life.

Don't fire warning shots. Don't aim to wound. KILL anyone you shoot at.
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You must realize that most weapons, but most especially handguns are very marginal weapons for killing people. Consider the perp in the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout.

His first, and only fatal wound, was caused by a 9mm. Win Silvertip. This bullet struck his R arm at the elbow, severed the brachial artery, which immediately began spurting blood, and continued to do so until the perp died. This bullet then penetrated his chest, completely collapsed the R lung, and damaged many pulmonary vessels. There was about 2.3 Liters of blood in his R chest cavity at autopsy. The bullet stopped just short of the vena cava.

Pretty damned good performance for a bullet, right? Well, actually, I think it is (the FBI disagrees). However, Platt (the perp) continued to fight for over four more minutes, killing several agents and wounding others, before he finally collapsed. Remember, additional wounds were inflicted on him, but ONLY the first was fatal. He basically bled out.

So, listen up. This is serious stuff. If you ever have to defend yourself, do so with fierce determination and all your strength. If you have a firearm, shoot your attacker in a vital spot, repeatedly, and be prepared to empty your weapon and still have to defend yourself against the attacker. Don't count on him dying immediately.

I am often asked which handgun caliber or ammunition is best. The simple answer is the biggest one you can shoot effectively. Nearly everyone can handle a .357; it is actually the noise which bothers people. Shooting earplugs and muffs both are absolute requirements when training. If you can handle a .44 or .45, then by all means do so. Any quality hollow point ammo will work; you are not depending upon it to expand. You are trying to put large holes through vital organs repeatedly, so that bleeding occurs rapidly. Blunt bullets like hollow points tend to cause bigger holes simply on account of the blunt profile.

A shotgun is much better than a pistol, and a (preferably main battle rifle or assault) rifle is much better than a shotgun. Platt
used a .223 semi auto Ruger in Miami. He did very well.

Respectfully submitted, Walt Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine, NRA Life Member since 1972.

As always, comments, criticisms, or questions gladly entertained.
 
Dear Walt,

I don't believe that the current thinking is practical if you are not faced by an armed assailant. The special forces go into the field knowing it's kill or be killed and having a "higher mission" and training to convince them to blow someone away. They are typically dealing with an "enemy" while in the cases I'm talking about you may just be dealing with a drunk neighbor. I think that it's easier to pull the trigger a couple times or rack a shotgun a couple times than to establish your rules of engagement and proticol for the application of deadly force. The key is to control the situation immediately.

In the case where I told the girl to blow out the nearest window she was living on a 40 acre farm. The number 6 shot was not going to reach the neighbors house. I also told her to aim for the top pane of the double hung window. The property was fenced and no one should anywhere around her windows at night. That shot was intended to raise an alarm, scare the sh... out of any intruder, and convince herself and intruders that she could and would fire the thing in the house. I don't think anyone was going to hang around once she took that action. If she started shooting at the guy in the house the birdshot would probably not have penetrated the walls to kill one of the other girls in the house.

In the case of a couple rounds of birdshot in a revolver it is very handy if you are facing an unarmed thug. Will this turkey knock you down and stomp you to death if you don't shoot him? It's hard to tell. Is there someone around to give you permission to shoot him dead? Maybe he's just an irrascible drunk who will take a swing at you and walk off. Maybe he's got a broken bottle behind his back. If you think you are really threatened, but still can't determine to what degree it discourages that decisive action of the defense protocols. If you aren't a martial arts expert your options below shooting have been reduced to shoot or fake it.

With the birdshot I get several options. If the threat is clear and imminent I use the first two rounds to shoot the guys eyes out. In a dark alley I increase my chances of at least hitting someone and getting them to take cover while they check their wounds (by the way I didn't invent this idea). I can shoot at a hand that is holding a blunt instrument, but is a few steps away and not posing an immediate threat. I can fire warning shots without worrying about the birdshot going very far. I can shoot to wound and really expect not to open a major artery and kill someone and I don't have to worry that if I miss a leg shot a bullet will ricochet a hundred yards down the street. If the threat is immediate I typically practise using three rounds per target anyway. I can do that in under two seconds.

You should also consider the topic of this posting. Should women carry a knife (implicitly for defense) and the opinions expressed that women were likely to fail to use their weapons and be disarmed. My options are intended to encourage the use of a weapon for defense without necessarily strewing the streets with bodies.

The only woman I know who shot someone with a .357 magnum was a den mother of my cub scout troop. She shot and killed her teen age son coming in a window late one night. It would have been a lot better if she had blown the top of the window out with a shotgun full of birdshot.

 
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